2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

[joecct]

The current president has been doing his part. There hasn't been a president since "Benjamin Harrison who averaged fewer executive orders per year than Obama. Reagan, Bush I and Bush II all used more. No president has averaged 100 or more executive orders per year since the glory days back in the 40s. Back when this country really was something.

Gerhard Peters: Executive Orders. The American Presidency Project.

As I said before how many EO's in the past were ceremonial and how many were "legislative"?

Every time this (and every) President threatens to (and does) end run Congress leads closer to government by diktat.

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

As I said before how many EO's in the past were ceremonial and how many were "legislative"?

Every time this (and every) President threatens to (and does) end run Congress leads closer to government by diktat.

I hate to interrupt a good paranoid conspiracy, but wouldn't the courts be the judge of that? Not that I'd mind if you guys got sent off to a gulag but I'm fairly certain that would be found as an illegal exercise of Presidential power.

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

but wouldn't the courts be the judge of that?

Ideally, but the Courts are starting to look more and more political. Would you trust a Court with a majority of GOP appointees to adjudicate whether an action by a GOP president exceeded the authority of his office? I wouldn't.

I think the more we place procedural limits on what presidents can do, the more we protect ourselves from the president becoming a de facto potentate. We came so close to that after 9/11, with an executive which did not recognize any rightful limits on its actions, a cowardly legislature terrified to appear "soft on terror," and a highly compliant Court system. The more we can hem in the president with explicit limits, the better, since all presidents always lean towards self-justification of any action not explicitly prohibited in law.

Whether you think the biggest threats of dictatorship come from the right or the left, the threats do come, periodically, and public opinion is no protection of liberty in times of danger, real or imagined. Because our system is adversarial, limits on a particular office will only ever be introduced by the opposing party, and the motives will always include the most cynical and crass partisanship. That in itself does not invalidate an action -- for example, the impeachment of Nixon would have been primarily driven by Democratic members, and it would have been in part partisan, but it would still have had other valid reasons. The lawsuit against Obama doesn't stand up to that test -- it's just rage-inducement to get feet to the polls (and in that regard it may backfire).

Until Congress is willing to act responsibly, the executive will continue to be given a long leash, since his expansive powers are so useful to Congress as an excuse to pass the hot potato.

[Slap Shot]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

Why is the dragger comeback to facts about actual orders always a comment about threats of EO?

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

Ideally, but the Courts are starting to look more and more political. Would you trust a Court with a majority of GOP appointees to adjudicate whether an action by a GOP president exceeded the authority of his office? I wouldn't.

I think the more we place procedural limits on what presidents can do, the more we protect ourselves from the president becoming a de facto potentate. We came so close to that after 9/11, with an executive which did not recognize any rightful limits on its actions, a cowardly legislature terrified to appear "soft on terror," and a highly compliant Court system. The more we can hem in the president with explicit limits, the better, since all presidents always lean towards self-justification of any action not explicitly prohibited in law.

Whether you think the biggest threats of dictatorship come from the right or the left, the threats do come, periodically, and public opinion is no protection of liberty in times of danger, real or imagined. Because our system is adversarial, limits on a particular office will only ever be introduced by the opposing party, and the motives will always include the most cynical and crass partisanship. That in itself does not invalidate an action -- for example, the impeachment of Nixon would have been primarily driven by Democratic members, and it would have been in part partisan, but it would still have had other valid reasons. The lawsuit against Obama doesn't stand up to that test -- it's just rage-inducement to get feet to the polls (and in that regard it may backfire).

Until Congress is willing to act responsibly, the executive will continue to be given a long leash, since his expansive powers are so useful to Congress as an excuse to pass the hot potato.

Kep again with you channelling Fishy. Nixon decided to cut bait when the GOP itself told him they could no longer support him and it was time to go. Your analogy using Watergate makes no sense.

Also, seeing as a GOP appointed SCOTUS did indeed do the very thing you think they wouldn't, I do believe if a President started taking on powers above what's Constitutional they'd be more than happy to step in, and would enjoy doing so whether or not the Prez was a Dem or a Gooper.

Believe it or not Kep, the system works almost in spite of everything else.

[burd]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

Why is the dragger comeback to facts about actual orders always a comment about threats of EO?

Okay, maybe Obama has used executive orders less frequently than the last three Republican presidents, but his executive orders are worse. Classic confirmation bias. We all deal with confirmation bias, but when it comes to BOB, Joecct and others' symptoms spike.

In fact, according to the Peters study, Obama has averaged fewer executive orders per year than any Republican president since Chester Arthur was elected in 1881. Teddy Roosevelt used the power four times as frequently.

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

Kep again with you channelling Fishy. Nixon decided to cut bait when the GOP itself told him they could no longer support him and it was time to go. Your analogy using Watergate makes no sense.

Do you honestly believe a GOP House would have moved the bill to impeach out of the Judiciary Committee? Nixon resigned because Goldwater told him even he couldn't resist the public pressure. That was after 2 years of investigation by Nixon opponents in the press and Congress. They were the ones who kept the spotlight on Nixon's crimes.

Reverse the situation and, well, you don't even need to guess, you get Iran-Contra. Reagan walks because the GOP has a 10-seat advantage in the Senate, and the southern Dems in the House are already starting to tumble to the realization that the Southern Strategy has worked and their days are numbered. He has a compliant legislature that is unwilling to challenge him, he is able to appoint the Tower Commission that whitewashes the situation, and the press doesn't have the same animus that 30 years of having to deal with the Dickster built up. Move the 70's press and Congress to 1986 and Reagan is impeached.

[dxmnkd316]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

Completely irrelevant, but has anyone ascertained whether Obama is a Scotsman? A true Scotsman?

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

Do you honestly believe a GOP House would have moved the bill to impeach out of the Judiciary Committee? Nixon resigned because Goldwater told him even he couldn't resist the public pressure. That was after 2 years of investigation by Nixon opponents in the press and Congress. They were the ones who kept the spotlight on Nixon's crimes.

Reverse the situation and, well, you don't even need to guess, you get Iran-Contra. Reagan walks because the GOP has a 10-seat advantage in the Senate, and the southern Dems in the House are already starting to tumble to the realization that the Southern Strategy has worked and their days are numbered. He has a compliant legislature that is unwilling to challenge him, he is able to appoint the Tower Commission that whitewashes the situation, and the press doesn't have the same animus that 30 years of having to deal with the Dickster built up. Move the 70's press and Congress to 1986 and Reagan is impeached.

Kep I'm fairly certain the Dems had the Senate majority during the Iran-Contra hearings as they retook the Senate in '86 and those hearings were in '87 maybe IIRC....

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

Completely irrelevant, but has anyone ascertained whether Obama is a Scotsman? A true Scotsman?

Socialist, yes. Kenyan, yes. Muslim, yes. Scotsman, no.

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

Kep I'm fairly certain the Dems had the Senate majority during the Iran-Contra hearings as they retook the Senate in '86 and those hearings were in '87 maybe IIRC....

You are correct, they did. And although that doesn't entirely invalidate my argument, it does weaken it.

[joecct]

You are correct, they did. And although that doesn't entirely invalidate my argument, it does weaken it.

You need 67 votes to convict. They didn't have the votes then and the votes did not exist in the Clinton fiasco.

If you don't have the votes - and the Radical Republicans thought they did, don't bother impeaching.

[Priceless]

If you don't have the votes - and the Radical Republicans thought they did, don't bother impeaching.

Dennis Hastert would like a word with you.

[joecct]

Dennis Hastert would like a word with you.

Well duh!

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

If you don't have the votes - and the Radical Republicans thought they did, don't bother impeaching.

Depends why you're impeaching. The GOP seems to think yammering about impeaching a Dem president is good for getting their base psyched and contributing. Considering how that went with Clinton, you'd think they would have learned their lesson, but apparently not.

Then again, we're talking about people with their heads rammed so far up their own rectums that they're talking about another shutdown as a viable political strategy. The derp is strong in these ones.