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Business, Economics, and Taxes: Capitalism. Yay? >=(

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Nice clickbait - I’m sure they’re going to rake in a ton with these headlines.

What we’re really talking about here is unrealized capital gains (UCG, i.e. wealth growth), which is obviously important, but different from income.

I’ve always struggled with how we should treat UCG. It’s one thing for easily divisible assets like stocks or bonds, though even in that case, I’m not all that comfortable with the idea that people should be forced to sell a portion of their portfolios just to pay taxes on the UCG. It’s a completely different story if the asset is real estate or art. An otherwise indigent person should not have to sell a family heirloom just because worldwide collectors decide that Mighty Morphin Power Rangers are back in fashion and drive up the price.

So let’s set UCG aside for now. How are these ratfuckers getting away without paying REALIZED capital gains? Jet fuel and caviar don’t come cheap. They’re clearly liquidating some assets somehow to get cash to pay for all those things - how are there enough loopholes that they’re paying no taxes on those liquidations, which should represent realized gains? That’s the first place I’d go investigate if I were in charge of the tax code.

The UCG framing of taxes was really cringey. But there are some really awful nuggets. Like how Bezos claimed the child tax credit. That really chapped my ass.

All that said, if they had framed it as the step up in basis needs to get thrown into the volcano, that would have been a much better goal. Not the somewhat bad faith characterization of "0.10% taxes paid!!!!" nonsense.
 
Perhaps. My first thought is that the IRS has no record of what these guys actually make. Yes, they bribe politicians to lower their tax bill, but what they really do is lie and cheat and hide their assets so the IRS never has any notion of what they ought to be taxed for.

Certainly, and we would first need to agree on the definition of “actually make.” Since nobody knows what they are actually worth at any specific point Ing time, how could you compute how much their wealth actually increased during the last tax year? Estimating it is a fun spectator sport, but the IRS would need to be a little more precise if they were to try to implement a tax on their change in wealth. Bill Gates is known to have paid around $100M for the art in his home. What was the market value of that art on Dec 31, 2019 and on Dec 31, 2020? How do you know, since no actual transaction took place?
 
Certainly, and we would first need to agree on the definition of “actually make.” Since nobody knows what they are actually worth at any specific point Ing time, how could you compute how much their wealth actually increased during the last tax year? Estimating it is a fun spectator sport, but the IRS would need to be a little more precise if they were to try to implement a tax on their change in wealth. Bill Gates is known to have paid around $100M for the art in his home. What was the market value of that art on Dec 31, 2019 and on Dec 31, 2020? How do you know, since no actual transaction took place?

Don't bring logic into this. Anyone with more money than Kepler is evil and came by what they have through deceit and theft.
 
Don't bring logic into this. Anyone with more money than Kepler is evil and came by what they have through deceit and theft.

You missed this in your haste to protect the virginal honor of Martin Shkreli, but Lynah and I are in agreement.

#handynotevenonce
 
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Can you 'splain this to me as if I were a bucket of paint? On micro that's what I am.

We tax income, not wealth. The wealthy can get an accountant to make their income be any number they want it to be for tax purposes. Thus paying no taxes. We need to start taxing wealth. That's what other nations do to pay for things.
 
Can you 'splain this to me as if I were a bucket of paint? On micro that's what I am.

What people like Scooby want is this. If you buy $100 worth of Gamestop stock on December 1 because you read something on reddit that sounded interesting, and if it went to $100,000 by December 31, they would like you to pay to the government $35,000 to $40,000 by April 15 of the following year, even though you hadn't sold a single share of that stock, hadn't realized any profit at all, and given the nature of things, might end up losing your $100.
 
What people like Scooby want is this. If you buy $100 worth of Gamestop stock on December 1 because you read something on reddit that sounded interesting, and if it went to $100,000 by December 31, they would like you to pay to the government $35,000 to $40,000 by April 15 of the following year, even though you hadn't sold a single share of that stock, hadn't realized any profit at all, and given the nature of things, might end up losing your $100.

No. That is not even in the fucking ballpark. We can start with Elizabeth Warren's wealth tax. Adjust from there.
 
The work shortage deal is gaining quite a bit of momentum in my neck of the woods. And a good chunk of chatter is among white, suburban upper middle and middle class voters who aren't full-on MAGA's and likely voted for Biden back in November.

This seems like it could be a class issue vs just a MAGA/Democrat issue. Something to keep in mind as this develops and if its something that hangs around.
 
The work shortage deal is gaining quite a bit of momentum in my neck of the woods. And a good chunk of chatter is among white, suburban upper middle and middle class voters who aren't full-on MAGA's and likely voted for Biden back in November.

This seems like it could be a class issue vs just a MAGA/Democrat issue. Something to keep in mind as this develops and if its something that hangs around.

Work shortage meaning lack of workers, or work shortage meaning lack of jobs? I assume the former.
 
Work shortage meaning lack of workers, or work shortage meaning lack of jobs? I assume the former.

Lack of workers. Many low-level service jobs aren't getting applications, let alone "quality" (meaning people who will dependably show up) candidates.
 
Work shortage means low pay, no benefits, and garbage conditions.

"Nobody's buying these rotten vegetables."

"We need more customers!!!"
 
Work shortage means low pay, no benefits, and garbage conditions.

"Nobody's buying these rotten vegetables."

"We need more customers!!!"

Yes, and I think the pandemic has a lot to do with this and sure the unemployment dollars is contributing. The fact that everyone expects it all to switch back on a dime when the pandemic isn't even over is startling to me.
 
Forgive me if you've seen this one before. One of the very few examples of this meme I have liked.


nlguyb2cr7t21.jpg
 
Work shortage means low pay, no benefits, and garbage conditions.

"Nobody's buying these rotten vegetables."

"We need more customers!!!"

"I see Help Wanted signs everywhere! Nobody wants to work!" says my uncle, who owns a sealcoating truck and collects unemployment every winter instead of getting a seasonal job.
 
Yes, and I think the pandemic has a lot to do with this and sure the unemployment dollars is contributing. The fact that everyone expects it all to switch back on a dime when the pandemic isn't even over is startling to me.

But its also that entire business sectors are all opening up at once, needing workers, and people can pick and choose the jobs they want to work at.

You offering shitty pay, work conditions, or crappy hours, don't be surprised if no one wants to work for you, and take a job where the conditions are better, instead.

Supply and demand, ain't capitalism great? Business ain't happy that for once, the workers get to exploit it.
 
Can you 'splain this to me as if I were a bucket of paint? On micro that's what I am.

This is actually a really good explanation of why it's a bad idea to tax unrealized capital gains.

What people like Scooby want is this. If you buy $100 worth of Gamestop stock on December 1 because you read something on reddit that sounded interesting, and if it went to $100,000 by December 31, they would like you to pay to the government $35,000 to $40,000 by April 15 of the following year, even though you hadn't sold a single share of that stock, hadn't realized any profit at all, and given the nature of things, might end up losing your $100.

Imagine this price change took place over a four-day window. You bought December 30th. It went to $100k on December 31st. It crashed on January 2nd. You suddenly have nothing to pay that tax bill. The rich would be able to figure it out. Your average Ape like us would be super fucked.



Back to your original question, Kep. Since insiders need to report their share movements/holdings to the SEC, we already know how many shares they own at the end of the year. It's not that hard to take the price at 12/31/2020 of their shares owned and then price it out at 12/31/2021.

It's... not an actual solution since there are issues with it. I believe they only need to report shares held for which they're considered insiders. So say Acme's CEO owns what appears to be an assload of Acme stock. LIt's a stodgy old blue chip stock that goes up a fairly reliable 5-7% a year. Great, we can price that out on market close on NYE. But what if the CEO owns 5x that value in shares of Tesla and it goes up by 500% in a year? Wouldn't the bulk of that person's wealth be undisclosed? Yes. Which is why it's an incomplete picture and not an actual solution.

But what if we pass a law that says everyone is required to show their holdings on their 1099s? The overall picture of wealth gets a little more clear, but there are still issues. Back to Lynah's post, you would never be able to tax wealth on things like "art" however you choose to define that. There isn't really a good way to track the market price of every piece of artwork.

An otherwise indigent person should not have to sell a family heirloom just because worldwide collectors decide that Mighty Morphin Power Rangers are back in fashion and drive up the price.

Worse yet... Imagine a person like me has a house. I bought the house at a great price at the depths of the housing market. It's now appreciated a LOT. Much of it in the last year or two. Imagine I had to somehow come up with the cash to pay for this increase in my overall wealth. I need a house to live in, but what if I suddenly can't pay for the tax on the house's appreciation? Do I have to sell the house to pay that tax? What if we can't find a place near our jobs and where our (hypothetical) children go to school? It's a bad, bad, bad, bad idea.

I really don't care if Elon Musk is worth eight gajillion dollars today. It's imaginary until someone gives him something in exchange for it. Once that happens, tax it.

The real way to fix this is treat every earned dollar as a dollar. No separate rates for inheritance, capital gains, gifts, whatever. A buck is a buck is a buck. All of it taxed at progressive rates as income. No flat rates like OASDI. And all universal income is treated as income regardless of where it's earned. Get rid of the step up in basis, too.

Bottom line. You don't value something until it changes hands. Treat it all the same.
 
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