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117th Congress: DEMS IN DISARRAY!!!111!!

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Handyman said:
And how exactly can he force Manchin and Sinema to vote for it? You sound like the clowns on Twitter who say Biden should be forcing Voters Rights Bills. (cause it is always good to force votes you will lose...makes you look like a strong President in whatever world they live in) That isn't how this works.

Those two have zero fear because their futures are locked. Manchin's best chance to be re-elected is to vote against it (cause his constituents are fucking idiots) and Sinema knows the Dems aren't voting for her again in Zona so she is thinking about life after the Senate. Biden can't bribe them or make them fear his wrath. Manchin knows it, Sinema knows it and Biden knows it.
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You miss the point, as always. I said either you force them or you get nowhere. That means if you can't force them then you get nowhere.

As for the ways to try to force them, parties have been forcing wayward members forever; indeed that is the trade of party membership: you get their support and power and financing but you lose some portion of your freedom.

If the Dems cannot force Sinema and Manchin in something as fundamental as voting rights then either eat it or be prepared to kick them out.

Your problem is you always assume. I'm not at all saying I know what Biden needs to do. I am only saying what he and Chuck have to be prepared to do to get anywhere. Otherwise they have no leverage. With the fate of the Republic hanging on this, presumably -- and hopefully -- the stakes are such that they should be willing to enforce party commitment even if it costs them, because "winning" with Sinema and Manchin only makes it more of a certainty the Nazis come back stronger than ever.
 
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So your diatribe was to tell us what we already know? Gee thanks Andy Rooney ;^)

This whole thing sucks. Hell Manchin is taking money away from sick people in his own state by not backing this. (It extended some tax break I guess) Not that he cares he will just ignore them again from his yacht as he whines about spending. (While approving the military budget)

Biden should now EO everything Manchin hates. He should also reverse course on Student Loans and find new pet issues to go after. (I suggest weed legalization) It's time he became the Leftist they pretend he is. He is a lame duck now anyways because not passing BBB will be an anchor in 2024. (Along with voter supression) Time to govern like it is your last days on Earth fuck the consequences.
 
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Handyman said:
So your diatribe was to tell us what we already know? Gee thanks Andy Rooney ;^)

This whole thing sucks. Hell Manchin is taking money away from sick people in his own state by not backing this. (It extended some tax break I guess) Not that he cares he will just ignore them again from his yacht as he whines about spending. (While approving the military budget)

Biden should now EO everything Manchin hates. He should also reverse course on Student Loans and find new pet issues to go after. (I suggest weed legalization) It's time he became the Leftist they pretend he is. He is a lame duck now anyways because not passing BBB will be an anchor in 2024. (Along with voter supression) Time to govern like it is your last days on Earth fuck the consequences.
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Yup. Do everything you can legally do plus like 10% and let the courts fight it out.
 
dxmnkd316 said:
Yup. Do everything you can legally do ... and let the courts fight it out.
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We should be doing this 24/7 anyway. Always Be Pushing. The Nazis took over their party and then took over America by always being at 11 for 41 years and counting.
 
Handyman said:
At this point not fighting at 110% is malpractice.
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He said everything legal plus 10%. 10% illegal puts everything legal at risk, so unless you are jettisoning laws entirely you have to stay legal.

I'm not even saying that as a moral argument, but as a practical one. Do everything legal but fully prosecute every Republican ringleader and media enabler for everything illegal they have done.

The laws is there to save the humans from the apes. We forget that since it is usually just used as a bludgeon for the rich to get their way, but it does have a legitimate use. We've stopped using it that way. Use it now or lose it.
 
All indications are that Manchin didn't follow through on his word. He made a deal with the President for 1.5 trillion and he fucked them. Progressives caved to pass the infrastructure bill on that word. The Democrats handled this horribly, especially leadership. Manchin and the leadership seemed to have forgot that yes, Biden got elected. But Biden also got elected because of progressives. To negotiate in good faith means everybody loses. The way this went the only ones that lost is progressives.
 
Handyman said:
He needs to fear re-election more than ticking off his donors.
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Didn't he say he wasn't going to run for re-election? He probably knows he's a dead man walking electorally speaking anyway. There won't be another Democrat from WV in my lifetime...
 
Kepler said:
He said everything legal plus 10%. 10% illegal puts everything legal at risk, so unless you are jettisoning laws entirely you have to stay legal.

I'm not even saying that as a moral argument, but as a practical one. Do everything legal but fully prosecute every Republican ringleader and media enabler for everything illegal they have done.

The laws is there to save the humans from the apes. We forget that since it is usually just used as a bludgeon for the rich to get their way, but it does have a legitimate use. We've stopped using it that way. Use it now or lose it.
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Well I meant it like the sports phrase (give 110%!) but honestly if we stay 100% legal we are going to lose. There is no way we will be able to do what you suggest in the amount of time left. The House flips in November. Once that occurs it is all over but the shouting. McCarthy is already hinting at massive investigations into Biden and the Dems and you know they will spend the next two years holding hearings on BS election fraud. Nothing will get done and it will be a two year sprint to 2024 where their sole purpose will be to smear Biden on the floor of the House. (I would say the odds on Impeachment are pretty solid...McCarthy needs to do everything he can to avoid letting them replace him as likely Speaker)

And the DOJ is not going to go after anyone if it seems even the slightest bit political.

I don't advocate breaking the rules...but if the other side has broken the rules so spectacularly that the rules are a hinderance to you even having a chance in the game what is the point? The game is rigged and only a fool or a really bad gambler thinks they can beat a stacked deck straight up. I feel like there is two minutes left in the game, they have the ball up 14 and we have no timeouts left.
 
Kepler said:
He said everything legal plus 10%. 10% illegal puts everything legal at risk, so unless you are jettisoning laws entirely you have to stay legal.

I'm not even saying that as a moral argument, but as a practical one. Do everything legal but fully prosecute every Republican ringleader and media enabler for everything illegal they have done.

The laws is there to save the humans from the apes. We forget that since it is usually just used as a bludgeon for the rich to get their way, but it does have a legitimate use. We've stopped using it that way. Use it now or lose it.
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But it doesn't. These aren't legislative lifts, these are pen stroke lifts. If the court tries to fuck you, cut out the part they hate and move on to the next. If you waste your time finding the 100% line, you're going to die. My point is, get it close and you'll win some of the 10% cases and you'll lose some. Flood the system with these and it won't keep up.
 
Handyman said:
Well I meant it like the sports phrase (give 110%!) but honestly if we stay 100% legal we are going to lose. There is no way we will be able to do what you suggest in the amount of time left. The House flips in November. Once that occurs it is all over but the shouting. McCarthy is already hinting at massive investigations into Biden and the Dems and you know they will spend the next two years holding hearings on BS election fraud. Nothing will get done and it will be a two year sprint to 2024 where their sole purpose will be to smear Biden on the floor of the House. (I would say the odds on Impeachment are pretty solid...McCarthy needs to do everything he can to avoid letting them replace him as likely Speaker)

And the DOJ is not going to go after anyone if it seems even the slightest bit political.

I don't advocate breaking the rules...but if the other side has broken the rules so spectacularly that the rules are a hinderance to you even having a chance in the game what is the point? The game is rigged and only a fool or a really bad gambler thinks they can beat a stacked deck straight up. I feel like there is two minutes left in the game, they have the ball up 14 and we have no timeouts left.
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I understand what you are saying. My strategy is shore up the refs and let them (make them?) do their job. We don't have to rely on the "if you aint cheatin' you aint tryin'" sports phrase because the only ways in which the Right are competitive nationally are driven by outright violence to the rules, if not to the officials (and that's being threatened).

I do agree that if the other team has its sticks high and the ref doesn't call it well, countermeasures are indicated. I'm not going to lose democracy so I can have "he played by the rules" on his tombstone. But I do still, somehow, even in my majestic cynicism, believe that when the rules are applied we win, and we win big. So our job is to punish the criminality with which the Right has operated with impunity for at least 27 years.
 
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Kepler said:
I understand what you are saying. My strategy is shore up the refs and let them (make them?) do their job. We don't have to rely on the "if you aint cheatin' you aint tryin'" sports phrase because the only ways in which the Right are competitive nationally are driven by outright violence to the rules, if not to the officials (and that's being threatened).

I do agree that if the other team has its sticks high and the ref doesn't call it well, countermeasures are indicated. I'm not going to lose democracy so I can have "he played by the rules" on his tombstone. But I do still, somehow, even in my majestic cynicism, believe that when the rules are applied we win, and we win big. So our job is to punish the criminality with which the Right has operated with impunity for at least 27 years.
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I think we're getting dangerously close to the break glass moment for Democracy moment, kep

Joe biden won by like 7 million and barely won the election. He lost seats in the house, and Kamala Harris actually has to set foot the senate building. None of this is new, but don't you think you should see a doctor if you have symptoms of cancer?
 
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dxmnkd316 said:
I think we're getting dangerously close to the break glass moment for Democracy moment, kep
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It's the Seldon Crisis of our time. If I had an answer I'd be Salvor Hardin. The nuts and grifters on the Right are risking, or outright desiring, us turning into Northern Ireland. I still think that once you go outside the law you give the thugs all the advantages. That doesn't mean you hafta be Gandhi and smile beatifically as they bayonet your face. But violence begets an endless spiral of violence, unless you are willing to End It the way we did in WW2. The alternative to a legal solution for a political issue is genocide. That's all a war is, a genocide we pretend is something else because we're the ones doing it and because we have decided it's preferable than other solutions.
 
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Honestly I assume the only way to save Democracy at this point is a divided states of America. Hell former generals are basically saying they fear a coup no matter who wins in '24. The system is collapsing before our eyes...

Long term we will likely win...but that sinking feeling we all have right now is The 1860 Flu. A divorce between the states is likely inevitable. This time though we let them starve.

One side has no desire for Democracy (they openly say it on the floor of Congress!) and the other is lead by weak willed plutes who care too much about making the right decisions.. The refs have turned a blind eye. I agree with dx if we want to preserve the Union it is close to the "in case of emergency" moment. The second the House flips is the point of no return.
 
Handyman said:
Honestly I assume the only way to save Democracy at this point is a divided states of America. Hell former generals are basically saying they fear a coup no matter who wins in '24. The system is collapsing before our eyes...

Long term we will likely win...but that sinking feeling we all have right now is The 1860 Flu. A divorce between the states is likely inevitable. This time though we let them starve.

One side has no desire for Democracy (they openly say it on the floor of Congress!) and the other is lead by weak willed plutes who care too much about making the right decisions.. The refs have turned a blind eye. I agree with dx if we want to preserve the Union it is close to the "in case of emergency" moment. The second the House flips is the point of no return.
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2022. It's going to be ugly. And it's so close to now.
 
dxmnkd316 said:
I'm a little concerned that California is the only food state that will come with us
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OR, WA, NY all produce a sh-t ton of food. And TBH CA is enough for all of us.

https://beef2live.com/story-states-p...value-0-107252

1. CA
5. MN
6. IL
12. WA
19. CO
23. PA
25. NY
28. OR

We have 3 of the top 6, we'll be okay. Remember also our economy will be something like 5x the Slave States, so we can just buy their raw materials with our loose change.

I'd worry more about strategic metals.
 
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