What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about

[Old Pio]

Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about

I tend to agree. People like Will, Friedman, etc. are generally given short-shrift by the right-wing media outlets. They get rid of people with brains and ideas, and replace them with the shrill, angry voices of Beck, Palin, etc. who have no new ideas, no original thinking and no real appeal outside of their respective choirs. As someone noted, the GOP should probably resign itself to being a more rural, older, white, southern, poorer political party.

While Olbermann, Rachel (I can bench press more than you) Maddow and the rest of that menagerie at MSNBC appeal to a higher class demographic? Spare me.

[burd]

Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about

It isn't only on the right that political discussion and analysis has degenerated into a contact sport. That's why I don't watch Fox or MSNBC (well, I did watch MSNBC the night Scott Brown was elected, guilty pleasure).

Obama is as divisive a figure as I can recall in the WH. He now claims that the question of whether or not a mosque should be located so close to ground zero is a "local matter" and he won't comment. However, the fact that it was a "local matter" didn't stop him from flappping his big yapper when his pal Skip Gates got busted in Cambridge. And those comments were made during a nationally televised news conference. Phony.

Fair enough point, but it's not a matter of the political discussion becoming a contact sport--Buckley played it that way. You could certainly disagree with him on many things, but the guy tried to elevate the discussion. And he managed to keep a fair amount of media attention in doing it. That, I admit, might be largely my imagination.

Times have changed, certainly, and both sides (sometimes three) struggle with how to engage in a meaningful debate when so many of us voters want a gut-level, emotional issue we can wrap our ignorant minds around. It's simpler for us that way; we don't have to evaluate a particular policy or issue on its own terms--we just identify its proponent and form our opinions accordingly. We can be secure in our position without being threatened by contradiction, complexity or doubt.

Scott brings up Friedman. He's smart, articulate, and not in lock-step with ideology. The GOP needs someone who is one part Beck and four parts him--only not Jewish, if they want him elected.

Gott get out of this thread--starting to talk through my arse.

[WeWantMore]

Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about

Buckley, quote from 1968, to Gore Vidal

"Now listen, you queer. Stop calling me a crypto Nazi, or I'll sock you in your god**** face and you'll stay plastered."

Buckley, on the above exchange, in 1985

"We both acted irresponsibly. I'm not a Nazi, but he is, I suppose, a fag."

Another good one:

When asked if he had "referred to Jesse Jackson as an ignoramus," Buckley said, "If I didn't, I should have."

I like William Buckley. But let's not pretend he was all about elevating the discussion. In fact, if he had said the first two quotes in 2010, I'd imagine the liberal media would be calling feverishly for him to resign right now.

[Red Cloud]

Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about

While Olbermann, Rachel (I can bench press more than you) Maddow and the rest of that menagerie at MSNBC appeal to a higher class demographic? Spare me.

Meh. I gave up on him a long time ago. He doesn't want to understand.

[Patman]

Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about

I like William Buckley. But let's not pretend he was all about elevating the discussion. In fact, if he had said the first two quotes in 2010, I'd imagine the liberal media would be calling feverishly for him to resign right now.

I saw a comment on some blog the other day that was along the lines of "the ones that praise him now were those who were tearing him down while he was alive"... he's so good because, you know, he's kinda dead.

You see, the lines of civility aren't drawn down the middle. I mean, dare we forget the junior senator from the state of Minnesota. I mean, we could have an entire book of non-civil talkers on the left... and yes, the right.

[burd]

Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about

Buckley, quote from 1968, to Gore Vidal


Buckley, on the above exchange, in 1985

Another good one:


I like William Buckley. But let's not pretend he was all about elevating the discussion. In fact, if he had said the first two quotes in 2010, I'd imagine the liberal media would be calling feverishly for him to resign right now.

No he most definitely was not all about elevating the discussion, and he could play dirty and he regularly said outlandish things--he liked attention. But he did also thrive on elevating the discussion, and I think the discussion was often better as a result. I didn't agree with him most of the time, but he brought real game.

One more thing before I have to go home and clean my room. The last several paragraphs of Justice Holmes' dissent in Abrams v. United States are, I think, some of the most wonderfully expressed thoughts in jurisprudence. In today's context, that case would have involved Islamic fundamentalists, not Bolsheviks. But in today's world, he would be excoriated by Beck and Limbaugh, not for the imprudent extent to which he advocated the protection of free speech, but for trying to feed our great country to the terrorists.

[Old Pio]

Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about

Buckley, quote from 1968, to Gore Vidal


Buckley, on the above exchange, in 1985

Another good one:


I like William Buckley. But let's not pretend he was all about elevating the discussion. In fact, if he had said the first two quotes in 2010, I'd imagine the liberal media would be calling feverishly for him to resign right now.

It's utterly amazing, all these years later, you're still concerned about Buckley's use of an unfriendly term for what Vidal is, but have no apparant concerns about his use of "Nazi" to describe WFB. Buckley wasn't a Nazi, while Vidal is unquestionably. . .gay. Why can't you allow for the fact that Buckley might actually be sincere in his outrage at being called a Nazi? What would you be saying, decades later, if Buckley referred to Vidal as a communist? I'd imagine you'd think that was below the belt.

Two of my favorite Buckley quotes: When asked what would be the first thing he'd do if he was elected Mayor of NY "demand a recount."

And when asked why Bobby Kennedy wouldn't debate him: "Why does Bologna reject the grinder."

Buckley, among his many accomplishments, put the award winning documentary about Stalin's terror famine in the Ukraine on "Firing Line." The "Harvest of Despair" opened many eyes to this enormous crime, which took the lives of 7 to 10 million people. PBS had refused to air it because they were in one of their periodic charm offensives with the Soviet Union. And the broadcast also made it possible to reveal the unconscionable reporting of the NYT's Walter Duranty, who told the world there was no terror famine, when he knew there was. Gotta break some eggs, dontcha know?

Despite taking a few comments from a 50 year career out of context, no rational person can argue that Buckley wasn't a positive influence on the level of political discourse in this country. An enormous influence. And you need only ask the people with whom he disagreed (other than that sodomite Vidal) to prove the point.

[WeWantMore]

Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about

Haha, settle down Old Pio, I'm totally on your side here. I said I like William Buckley.

I'm just expressing disagreement with the constant yearning that seems to come from some Washington reporters and others for the "good old days", where people cared about the issues. That's utter bull****.

Remember that presidential election where one candidate spread rumors about another candidate's illegitimate son? What year was that again? 2000, 2008?
Nope, try 1884

Edit: Maybe "cared about the issues" is too harsh. I do think people cared about them back then and still do now. Let's not pretend that this nasty "partisanship" that everyone is moaning about now is new though. Or even that it's a bad thing.

[Old Pio]

Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about

Haha, settle down Old Pio, I'm totally on your side here. I said I like William Buckley.

I'm just expressing disagreement with the constant yearning that seems to come from some Washington reporters and others for the "good old days", where people cared about the issues. That's utter bull****.

Remember that presidential election where one candidate spread rumors about another candidate's illegitimate son? What year was that again? 2000, 2008?
Nope, try 1884

Edit: Maybe "cared about the issues" is too harsh. I do think people cared about them back then and still do now. Let's not pretend that this nasty "partisanship" that everyone is moaning about now is new though. Or even that it's a bad thing.

Still, you look at the people Buckley had on "Firing Line" over the years, and the intellectual level of those discussions, it makes today's programming look like media day at Middle School.

You're right of course, politics as someone said, ain't beanbag. Look at the editorial cartoons of Lincoln. And David Brinkley always used to tell the story about a southern pol who got a lot of traction by pointing out his opponant's wife was a "well known thespian."

After Reagan got elected, somebody asked Buckley if he'd be interested in a position in the new administration that would give him more "influence." He replied that he was happy editing the magazine, every issue of which the president read cover to cover.

[Old Pio]

Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about

I saw a comment on some blog the other day that was along the lines of "the ones that praise him now were those who were tearing him down while he was alive"... he's so good because, you know, he's kinda dead.

You see, the lines of civility aren't drawn down the middle. I mean, dare we forget the junior senator from the state of Minnesota. I mean, we could have an entire book of non-civil talkers on the left... and yes, the right.

We saw an example of that phenomenon during the coverage of Reagan's funeral. Of course there was some baseline respect for the passing of a president, but the media coverage went far beyond that. IMHO, because they knew he wasn't going to crush them anymore.

Suddenly it was all: "We really respected him." Even though while alive he was a "second rate actor," who was in "Bedtime for Bonzo," who was "too stupid" to be president. Liberals got a lot of laughs when Tip O'Neil called Reagan an "amiable dunce." Well, he was smart enough to win 93 states in his two runs for president.

Earlier, when that corrupt clown Pat Brown said "I want Reagan," he got him, in the race for governor of California. Despite registration favoring Democrats 2 to 1, Reagan beat Brown by a million votes That nasty piece of work Jimmy Carter made the same observation in '80 and lost 44 states and the Senate in the bargain.

[ScottM]

Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about

While Olbermann, Rachel (I can bench press more than you) Maddow and the rest of that menagerie at MSNBC appeal to a higher class demographic? Spare me.

No, I would place them in the same category as Beck et al: A lot of noise, and no original thinking.

[Jon]

Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about

No, I would place them in the same category as Beck et al: A lot of noise, and no original thinking.

Much like these threads.

[ScottM]

Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about

Much like these threads.

Precisely. I think we should pitch a twisted version of "The McLaughlin Group" featuring USCHO political thread posters to Comedy Central ... or maybe Lifetime.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about

Precisely. I think we should pitch a twisted version of "The McLaughlin Group" featuring USCHO political thread posters to Comedy Central ... or maybe Lifetime.

Now that's a good idea. A first for this thread.

[goldy_331]

Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about

Precisely. I think we should pitch a twisted version of "The McLaughlin Group" featuring USCHO political thread posters to Comedy Central ... or maybe Lifetime.

How about Logo?