Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

I have been more for general border security than against it. Its a fairly important issue that I don't have a strong preference on.

My main opinion is that really strong border security (as with the other roles of education, roads, military) is not really a small government position. And that its ok to admit that.

So you're 51 percent in favor of border security and 49 percent against that. Forgive me as an Arizonan for thinking it's thinking like that that helped created the border mess we have right now. Why on earth would you have mixed feelings about having a secure border? That's just bizarre, but people can afford such inconsistencies I guess when they aren't directly impacted by border problems.

The argument about small government can't secure it's border is one of the weakest against securing the border, and I've always been puzzled why you hang your hat on it so much.

[LynahFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

The argument about small government can't secure it's border is one of the weakest against securing the border, and I've always been puzzled why you hang your hat on it so much.

Agree. It would take, what? Maybe 1% of the Federal Budget to actually secure the border? A very small government (compared to what we have now) could secure the border if it chose to do so.

[Foxton]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Agree. It would take, what? Maybe 1% of the Federal Budget to actually secure the border? A very small government (compared to what we have now) could secure the border if it chose to do so.

You want to put up some actual math and show how it can be done for that?

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Agree. It would take, what? Maybe 1% of the Federal Budget to actually secure the border? A very small government (compared to what we have now) could secure the border if it chose to do so.

It's a red herring argument that shows 5mn really isn't interested in a secure border. Unfortunate, but lots of folks these days don't care about issues until they are right on their doorstep.

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

I saw a report where illegal immigration from Mexico has decreased 70% from 2000 to 2010. Apparently the way to secure the border is to destroy the economy.

After actually viewing the border, the idea of a "wall" is ludicrous. The terrain is the wall.

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

I saw a report where illegal immigration from Mexico has decreased 70% from 2000 to 2010. Apparently the way to secure the border is to destroy the economy.

After actually viewing the border, the idea of a "wall" is ludicrous. The terrain is the wall.

Maybe that's how Obama is securing the border, and we just haven't understood his communications (as he claims about so many other good things he's doing for us).

The terrain is difficult, but for the most part can and is traversed with varying degrees of difficulty. Especially if there's coordination to get picked up by a vehicle after getting a little ways into Arizona. Plus, using the terrain as somewhat of a wall is relegating those crossing the terrain who aren't physically strong enough or well-provisioned to a significant risk of dying in the desert, particularly in the scorching summer months.

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Maybe that's how Obama is securing the border, and we just haven't understood his communications (as he claims about so many other good things he's doing for us).

The terrain is difficult, but for the most part can and is traversed with varying degrees of difficulty. Especially if there's coordination to get picked up by a vehicle after getting a little ways into Arizona. Plus, using the terrain as somewhat of a wall is relegating those crossing the terrain who aren't physically strong enough or well-provisioned to a significant risk of dying in the desert, particularly in the scorching summer months.

I'm giving the Republicans credit for something for once, you should be happy.

I have a feeling some of what we're learning about tracking people in Afghanistan is going to be helpful along the border.

By the way, the Arizona bureau of tourism should be running ads 24/7 just showing pictures of the hills. Granted it's a niche taste, but I think it's one of the most beautiful places in the world.

*****http://www.desertmuseum.org/programs/images/AZU_Waterman32.jpg******

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Agreed there is some amazing beauty in southern Arizona, though it's not a taste everyone has.

As for Republicans, I'm not always a fan of how they have dealt with border issues, particularly our previous president.

Out of curiosity, where is that picture from?

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Out of curiosity, where is that picture from?

Santa Catalina Mountains north of Tucson.

Car chases should be filmed on the road to Mount Lemmon. Not only is it lovely; it has curves worthy of an F-1 course.

*****http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__AJvT_OyirE/SnZK2_8BneI/AAAAAAAAAL4/CQrgJ2AC120/s400/IMG_0111.JPG******

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

So your plan to fix the border is to throw 15 billion dollars a year more at it...15 billion more than we're already spending? That amounts to increasing the size of the entire Customs and Border Security Service almost 150%. The increase alone is equivalent to well over 10% of our entire education budget...or over half the annual budget for US high schools. Are you nuts? Do you know what the ongoing interest will be on that money alone? It didn't take you long to show big govt conservative colors?

See this is exactly the kind of big govt thinking where the hypocracy comes in. You have your special interest pet project of a paltry $15 billion permanent increase...and then you are supposedly for small government and everyone else needs to cut spending while you spend more.

Good point. It would take far less than 1 percent of the federal budget to secure the border, even more reason why they have no excuse to not do it. Now back to your usual aversion to national security and safety along our borders.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Agree. It would take, what? Maybe 1% of the Federal Budget to actually secure the border?

So your plan to fix the border is to throw billions of dollars a year more at it...billions more than we're already spending? Are you nuts? Do you know what the ongoing interest will be on that money alone? It didn't take you long to show big govt conservative colors.

See this is exactly the kind of big govt thinking where the hypocracy comes in. You have your special interest pet project of a paltry multi billion permanent increase...and then you are supposedly for small government and everyone else needs to cut spending while you spend more.

OK...Bob. Now are you really for border security or for just spending more...

I absolutely believe being directly responsible for causing mass violence on Americans and others is criminal. If the ATF has done this, those actions are criminal. Indeed, the ATF as we speak is being investigated. I fully support the guilty in such a case be brought to justice. As they should be. As a related note, many felt that those responsible for the Iraq war should be similarly investigated.

Now let's look at the gun lobby. They are singlehandedly resulting in the endangering of many lives and our borders with outcomes similar to the ATF's investigated actions.

With the gun lobby, justice isn't even on the table for conservatives. Neither is taking action to stop the same type of extension of violence for which the ATF investigated. In fact, conservative support for the gun lobby is strong even as this action is in direct conflict with another red meat issue border security. Regardless, conservatives will always support the gun lobby...because in terms of ideology, the gun lobby is more important than border security and protecting lives combined.

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

So your plan to fix the border is to throw billions of dollars a year more at it...billions more than we're already spending? Are you nuts? Do you know what the ongoing interest will be on that money alone? It didn't take you long to show big govt conservative colors.

See this is exactly the kind of big govt thinking where the hypocracy comes in. You have your special interest pet project of a paltry multi billion permanent increase...and then you are supposedly for small government and everyone else needs to cut spending while you spend more.

OK...Bob. Now are you really for border security or for just spending more...

You just keep beating the same old dead horse, don't you? I'll give you credit, you've got stamina if nothing else. As I've said before, come up with a halfway decent argument against securing the border and maybe we can discuss things more substantively. Budget concerns just don't cut the mustard, and it's obvious you're just using that to avoid addressing the issue more substantively.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

You just keep beating the same old dead horse, don't you? I'll give you credit, you've got stamina if nothing else. As I've said before, come up with a halfway decent argument against securing the border and maybe we can discuss things more substantively. Budget concerns just don't cut the mustard, and it's obvious you're just using that to avoid addressing the issue more substantively.

Because I've answered this question over and over.

I have stated I think its a problem, yet like most Americans, I believe its not the country's most important one. That's reserved for national workforce and entrepreneurship competitiveness and its outcome the economy. Like most Americans, I'm for creative solutions, yet like most Americans, I'm not an expert. The only solution you seem to be behind is throwing 1% of all national spending at it...which is unacceptable in my book.

I'd ask you again if you're really for border security or for just spending more based on my post below.

But you don't seem to respond to others questions when they're tough and as such, I think you've already answered this one.

[LynahFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

So your plan to fix the border is to throw billions of dollars a year more at it...billions more than we're already spending? Are you nuts? Do you know what the ongoing interest will be on that money alone? It didn't take you long to show big govt conservative colors.

Plan? Jeez. I just pulled a number out of my butt. You're judging that thought experiment against some pretty lofty false expectations which you just made up. Border security is not my "pet project," but I do think it ought to be among the many goals of the US government. I simply stated a fact: a much smaller government than we have today could spend $30B (~1% of today's budget) on border security. The smaller government piece is RIGHT THERE IN THE STATEMENT. First, make the government smaller - check. Then, devote a greater percentage of the smaller budget (remember, the government is smaller now, just in case you forgot that part already) to border security - check. Wow - smaller government AND more spending on border security. I know that's some complicated math for you, but at least try this time?

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

We might make more headway if we separated the big/small government issue and the security/openness issue and the law/amnesty issue. While no doubt they overlap, they are different things.

For instance, if there was a magical way to stop violent criminals at the border yet let in poor people who were just looking for opportunity, that would change some minds. "Immigration" is too big, and assumes too much.