Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

[Billy Blanks]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

You know what's baffling. How someone can watch a lot of baseball and completely discount defense. How people cannot understand basic concepts like a player being a good defensive player in a hard and important defensive position like SS or CF makes them more valuable than a fat (and getting fatter) statue who plays the easiest defensive position in the game and plays it poorly.

Granderson is worth more than he's getting paid. We can't say the same about Cabrera.

Fail.

He had the 2nd highest UZR among AL first basemen this past season.

Try again.

[Billy Blanks]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

I am hearing that the Cardinals are interested in Inge now...

[Hammer]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

Okay, who plays third if he ship him? The answer better not be Carlos Guillen...

[Billy Blanks]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

Okay, who plays third if he ship him? The answer better not be Carlos Guillen...

Tom Brookens of course...

[streaker]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

streaker, you and I are on opposite ends on Dombrowski:


And just when was that? The mid-70's? That's the last time the Tiger farm system produced on a consistent basis. Other than that, the Mud Hens have been doing things with 4-A players like Mike Hessman, Virgil Vasquez, Chris Lambert and Brent Clevlen. About 5 years ago, when Fifth Third Field was being built, the Mud Hen management went to the Tigers and told them: "Look. We're building a new field here. Give us some talent to put in it, or we're going to find another major league team as an affiliate. We're tired of this".

Look. The Tigers drafted and produced homegrown talent for the Tigers very, very poorly for 24 years, between 1979 and 2003. You can count on two hands the truly good players this franchise produced in those years:

Howard Johnson
John Smoltz (who was a .500 pitcher in AA when we traded him in 1987)
Travis Fryman
Matt Nokes (before the knee went POP)

Please notice that there is no pitching listed above that produced for Detroit. And do NOT bring me Jeff Weaver, Tony Clark and Bobby Higginson. Their results spoke for themselves in the standings at the end of every year. The nucleus of the 1984 was drafted between 1974 and 1977 (Morris, Parrish, Whitaker, Trammell, Petry, Gibson).

When David Dombrowski took over in the fall of 2001, this team was in horrid shape from top to bottom. Curtis Granderson was almost ready, and that was it. There was nothing in this farm system that was remotely ready to help a team sniff .500. That's why, 6 games into the 2002 season, he broomed Phil Garner and Randy Smith, and after that draft, most of the scouting staff. He knew that he had to completely re-construct the farm system that had been barren since the mid-70's, when Jim Campbell began to get old.

In the meantime, he had to put butts in the seats someway. The 2003 team was an unavoidable disaster. That team was 5-7 free agents away from 60 wins. They were bad. The next fall, he had no choice but to overpay for Pudge, and the next season, Magglio. There was no way on God's green earth that any free agent worth his salt was coming here without a major cash incentive. Selling the Tigers as a destination for free agents was like selling real estate next door to Chernobyl. People weren't touching this team with a 10-foot pole. It was either overpay, or they weren't coming. And then get ready for another 110+ loss season, and the Tigers likely would have looking at bankruptcy sometime in 2004. I'm not exaggerating. Remember the rumor about a team having problems making payroll? It was Detroit.

Remember: Pudge's signing led to Magglio's. Magglio's signing led to Kenny Rogers. Rogers' signing led partially to the 2006 World Series. After that it fell apart because the management before Dombrowski had not provided the necessary talent to fill in the gaps, and Dombrowski's prosects had not been given enough time to develop themselves.

Dombrowski's trades, for the most part, have fared quite well. Let's review:

Jurjjens for Renteria: Okay, he ****ed up there. Plain and simple. No argument from me.
Humberto Sanchez and two prospects for Sheffield: Sheffield was very productive until the shoulder fell apart. Sanchez never threw a pitch for the Yankees and wound up with Tommy John surgery. He's now out of baseball, and probably at the drive-thru line at Burger King as we speak. Big boy liked to eat. And the other two prospects have yet to sniff the majors, three years later. The Tigers got more production out of this deal.
Urbina for Polanco: Polanco gave us 4 1/2 very good seasons. Urbina sits in a Venezuelan prison, and will for the next decade. You tell me who got the better of this one.
Ramon Santiago and the other Juan Gonzalez for Carlos Guillen: Ramon Santiago went to Seattle, and wound up back here a year later along side Guillen. Anyone know what happened to the other Juan Gone? Me either.
Weaver for Bonderman, Pena, and I forget the other prospect : Weaver was a head case who was a bouncer on Jerry Springer and liked to fight at Hockeytown Cafe, along side Robert Fick. He's bounced around the league more than a basketball. Pena, like Weaver, underachieved in Detroit and is gone again. Bonderman was well on his way until his rib went missing, and the jury is still out on him. When we have our ruling on him, we'll also have the ruling on this trade.
Miller and Maybin for Willis and Cabrera: Cabrera has a home run title and two 100-RBI seasons. Willis can't find home plate without a map. Andrew Miller doesn't exactly know where the strike zone is, either. Cameron Maybin still can't crack the lineup everyday. Big IF here, but if Cabrera can put down the bottle, this one is a no-brainer as well.

Draft picks. All of the last five Tiger 1st round draft picks have seen major league service time within two years of signing with Detroit:

2004: Justin Verlander
2005: Andrew Miller
2006: Cameron Maybin
2007: Rick Porcello
2008: Ryan Perry

I don't think the 2009 pick will progress that fast, but the prior drafting will allow him more time.

Has Dombrowski made mistakes? Absolutely. The Willis contract was a colossal ****-up. Bonderman, at the time, was not. The pitching market was going bat**** at the time, and he was trying to lock up what appeared to be an up-and-coming starter and possible ace to what could have been below-market price. As for Robertson, this team wasn't in the position to take a chance on left-handed starting pitching leave the organization.

Dombrowski basically took over the American League version of the 1962 Mets. It takes a long time to properly build a franchise. He's made mistakes, but I'll take what he's done over 2/3 of the rest of the franchises.

EDIT: Curtis Granderson was a Dombrowski pick in the 3rd round of the '02 draft.

Hammer-

Dombrowski came here with an empty canvas and had nothing to work with. Randy Smith was an absolute joke. What he did up until the last two seasons was nothing short of miraculous, although his boss' checkbook helped. He made major expenditure gaffes that would have gotten most executives in the business world fired.

I think he was given the command to fix it or he'd get fixed. It better work out. IMO it won't, but Ilitch has closed the vault, considering that his GM was spending money faster than our government.

[Spartanforlife4]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

According to my studies, this would leave the Tigers without a third of their female fan base.

The chart fills out like this:
1/3 Granderson
1/3 Inge
1/3 Verlander

If the Inge rumors are true, the Tigers could be missing 66.7% of their female fans next season.

[Billy Blanks]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

Now I am hearing Milton Bradley and Dontrelle Willis' names floating around.

[Hammer]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

Believe it or not, I'd rather have Willis, or even eat his contract. Bradley has more baggage than most airlines.

[Billy Blanks]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

The dodgers are interested in Verlander...

[moe24]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

The dodgers are interested in Verlander...

But are they more interested then the Tigers are? I hope not.

[Billy Blanks]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

From my guy at the winter meetings, he just heard in the lobby that Ian Kennedy's medical is holding up the trade. He has an anuerysm.

[GreatLakerMohawk]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

From my guy at the winter meetings, he just heard in the lobby that Ian Kennedy's medical is holding up the trade. He has an anuerysm.

He had one. Last year. It's why he didn't pitch until late August.

[Billy Blanks]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

But are they more interested then the Tigers are? I hope not.

I imagine they'd have to be. We'd be selling really high with Verlander now. If they get an offer anywhere close to Texas offer for Johnson we need to jump all over that!

[Billy Blanks]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

He had one. Last year. It's why he didn't pitch until late August.

Correct, I mispoke. Yes, he HAD one below his armpit last season. Apparently the D-Backs are just doing their due diligence. Everyone else has passed.

[GreatLakerMohawk]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

Correct, I mispoke. Yes, he HAD one below his armpit last season. Apparently the D-Backs are just doing their due diligence. Everyone else has passed.

For what it's worth, he pitched rehab stints in the minors and got the September call up for the Yankees (surprisingly I might add) and appeared in a couple of games. I'd imagine he's good to go.