Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

[streaker]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

That sound you heard was the phones at Comerica cancelling season tix sales.

Nothing like becoming the Milwaukee Brewers in a matter of hours.

[Billy Blanks]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

That sound you heard was the phones at Comerica cancelling season tix sales.

Nothing like becoming the Milwaukee Brewers in a matter of hours.

So you are of the opinion that this trade doesn't benefit the club?

[Billy Blanks]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

Ouch. In order of awesomeness: Yankees.

Way down: Tigers (giving up a top centerfielder and a credible starter, getting back a ton of prospects)

Unbelievable and someone should take their GM out back and shoot his career in the face: D-Backs.

A friend of mine is a writer/blogger/sports talk radio host and this was his reply to your post that I sent him...

"I've received texts, emails, phone calls, tons of communication today from scouts, coaches, front office types, etc., and I've heard nary a one say they don't like the deal for the Tigers. One AL Central official I exchanged emails with today basically said the reaction around him today was "Oh Sh**! We're going to have to do something to keep up long term." When I asked if that meant they weren't worried about 2010, he responded "Oh no, we're still worried about next year. That pitching is *** stupid good!"

It's a pretty common sentiment among industry insiders, that the Tigers did very well in this deal....

[streaker]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

So you are of the opinion that this trade doesn't benefit the club?

Nope. Trading the only skilled outfielder you have, a gold glove candidate, 30 hr guy, speed... for what? Prospects? So he can't hit lefties, big deal. So he has a mediocre arm- but he can catch and at the CoPa, that is the type of outfielder you need. You watch, the Yanks will turn him around. All this because the dumbazz GM was so shortsighted in signing Willis to an extension without him throwing a pitch, Robertson, Bonderman, Inge on two bad knees, MAGGLIO, Guillen...

so in the process we lose the two guys that have consistently been part of the offense... and that isn't even talking about the seven years left with Alkie Cabrera. Oh, but we got our .200 catcher and SS, not to mention those other AAA level outfielders. Dumbrowski should own up to his mistakes and take his medicine. He blew this deal and he blew the whole Polanco thing. So how much will it take to sign the two closers who rejected arbitration?

Wait until Verlander goes, and I guarantee you, he will.

Welcome back to the days when Toledo had more going for them then the parent club. Cleveland, you'll have company in the cellar.

[Hammer]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

streaker, you and I are on opposite ends on Dombrowski:

Welcome back to the days when Toledo had more going for them then the parent club.

And just when was that? The mid-70's? That's the last time the Tiger farm system produced on a consistent basis. Other than that, the Mud Hens have been doing things with 4-A players like Mike Hessman, Virgil Vasquez, Chris Lambert and Brent Clevlen. About 5 years ago, when Fifth Third Field was being built, the Mud Hen management went to the Tigers and told them: "Look. We're building a new field here. Give us some talent to put in it, or we're going to find another major league team as an affiliate. We're tired of this".

Look. The Tigers drafted and produced homegrown talent for the Tigers very, very poorly for 24 years, between 1979 and 2003. You can count on two hands the truly good players this franchise produced in those years:

Howard Johnson
John Smoltz (who was a .500 pitcher in AA when we traded him in 1987)
Travis Fryman
Matt Nokes (before the knee went POP)

Please notice that there is no pitching listed above that produced for Detroit. And do NOT bring me Jeff Weaver, Tony Clark and Bobby Higginson. Their results spoke for themselves in the standings at the end of every year. The nucleus of the 1984 was drafted between 1974 and 1977 (Morris, Parrish, Whitaker, Trammell, Petry, Gibson).

When David Dombrowski took over in the fall of 2001, this team was in horrid shape from top to bottom. Curtis Granderson was almost ready, and that was it. There was nothing in this farm system that was remotely ready to help a team sniff .500. That's why, 6 games into the 2002 season, he broomed Phil Garner and Randy Smith, and after that draft, most of the scouting staff. He knew that he had to completely re-construct the farm system that had been barren since the mid-70's, when Jim Campbell began to get old.

In the meantime, he had to put butts in the seats someway. The 2003 team was an unavoidable disaster. That team was 5-7 free agents away from 60 wins. They were bad. The next fall, he had no choice but to overpay for Pudge, and the next season, Magglio. There was no way on God's green earth that any free agent worth his salt was coming here without a major cash incentive. Selling the Tigers as a destination for free agents was like selling real estate next door to Chernobyl. People weren't touching this team with a 10-foot pole. It was either overpay, or they weren't coming. And then get ready for another 110+ loss season, and the Tigers likely would have looking at bankruptcy sometime in 2004. I'm not exaggerating. Remember the rumor about a team having problems making payroll? It was Detroit.

Remember: Pudge's signing led to Magglio's. Magglio's signing led to Kenny Rogers. Rogers' signing led partially to the 2006 World Series. After that it fell apart because the management before Dombrowski had not provided the necessary talent to fill in the gaps, and Dombrowski's prosects had not been given enough time to develop themselves.

Dombrowski's trades, for the most part, have fared quite well. Let's review:

Jurjjens for Renteria: Okay, he ****ed up there. Plain and simple. No argument from me.
Humberto Sanchez and two prospects for Sheffield: Sheffield was very productive until the shoulder fell apart. Sanchez never threw a pitch for the Yankees and wound up with Tommy John surgery. He's now out of baseball, and probably at the drive-thru line at Burger King as we speak. Big boy liked to eat. And the other two prospects have yet to sniff the majors, three years later. The Tigers got more production out of this deal.
Urbina for Polanco: Polanco gave us 4 1/2 very good seasons. Urbina sits in a Venezuelan prison, and will for the next decade. You tell me who got the better of this one.
Ramon Santiago and the other Juan Gonzalez for Carlos Guillen: Ramon Santiago went to Seattle, and wound up back here a year later along side Guillen. Anyone know what happened to the other Juan Gone? Me either.
Weaver for Bonderman, Pena, and I forget the other prospect : Weaver was a head case who was a bouncer on Jerry Springer and liked to fight at Hockeytown Cafe, along side Robert Fick. He's bounced around the league more than a basketball. Pena, like Weaver, underachieved in Detroit and is gone again. Bonderman was well on his way until his rib went missing, and the jury is still out on him. When we have our ruling on him, we'll also have the ruling on this trade.
Miller and Maybin for Willis and Cabrera: Cabrera has a home run title and two 100-RBI seasons. Willis can't find home plate without a map. Andrew Miller doesn't exactly know where the strike zone is, either. Cameron Maybin still can't crack the lineup everyday. Big IF here, but if Cabrera can put down the bottle, this one is a no-brainer as well.

Draft picks. All of the last five Tiger 1st round draft picks have seen major league service time within two years of signing with Detroit:

2004: Justin Verlander
2005: Andrew Miller
2006: Cameron Maybin
2007: Rick Porcello
2008: Ryan Perry

I don't think the 2009 pick will progress that fast, but the prior drafting will allow him more time.

Has Dombrowski made mistakes? Absolutely. The Willis contract was a colossal ****-up. Bonderman, at the time, was not. The pitching market was going bat**** at the time, and he was trying to lock up what appeared to be an up-and-coming starter and possible ace to what could have been below-market price. As for Robertson, this team wasn't in the position to take a chance on left-handed starting pitching leave the organization.

Dombrowski basically took over the American League version of the 1962 Mets. It takes a long time to properly build a franchise. He's made mistakes, but I'll take what he's done over 2/3 of the rest of the franchises.

EDIT: Curtis Granderson was a Dombrowski pick in the 3rd round of the '02 draft.

[Hammer]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

As for this team. I would not be surprised if Alex Avila is the starting catcher by the middle of 2010. Who knows about Sizemore or Austin Jackson. If Scherzer can make the adjustment between leagues, he'll be fine. There's another crop of outfielders (3 of them) that should be in Toledo this year, and if I had to guess, we'll see one of them in Detroit this season. There's more pitching on the way, and we're probably likely to see some of it in 2011.

The bad contracts are only going to hurt this team for another year or two. Willis and Ordonez, the two worst contracts, are likely to be gone this time next season, and Ordonez's deal was a necessary evil. This team is going to look radically different 18 months from now.

I know. I've heard this all before, too. However, I believe that this time it is different, because this time I can point to a history of talent arriving in the majors shortly after we drafted it, and this time we have a GM who will trade some of our homegrown talent for guys who can/will produce. That is something we were NOT able to say for two full decades before this crew arrived.

I believe in Dave Dombrowski, at least for the next couple years.

(Memo to the masses: Don't be that asshat who starts that "A-Jack!!!!" crap with Austin Jackson. You sound like you're on your way from the trailer to work at KFC).

[Bronco]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

Granderson.

I'm buying what Hammer is selling, but I still don't like losing Curtis. I wonder how Rod is taking this, since his drink can't be stirred anymore.

[Hammer]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

I'm not bouncing off the walls over the trade either, but if they had to make a deal, this was as good as it was going to get. Allegedly there's outfielders on the way. I guess Casper Wells blew the doors off of the Arizona Fall League. But I've got to see more before I jump on board, there.

And while I'm buying what I'm selling, too, I'm not doing so blindly. I got burned on that a decade ago, with the Justin Thompson-Mike Drumright-Tony Clark-Damion Easley-Bobby Higginson-Raul Casanova crew. The difference is that Dombrowski has a track record. When he's gone to the swap meets, he comes home with guys like Polanco and Guillen instead of Gregg Jefferies, Bip Roberts and Willie Blair.

[Billy Blanks]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

Nope. Trading the only skilled outfielder you have, a gold glove candidate, 30 hr guy, speed... for what? Prospects? So he can't hit lefties, big deal. So he has a mediocre arm- but he can catch and at the CoPa, that is the type of outfielder you need. You watch, the Yanks will turn him around. All this because the dumbazz GM was so shortsighted in signing Willis to an extension without him throwing a pitch, Robertson, Bonderman, Inge on two bad knees, MAGGLIO, Guillen...

so in the process we lose the two guys that have consistently been part of the offense... and that isn't even talking about the seven years left with Alkie Cabrera. Oh, but we got our .200 catcher and SS, not to mention those other AAA level outfielders. Dumbrowski should own up to his mistakes and take his medicine. He blew this deal and he blew the whole Polanco thing. So how much will it take to sign the two closers who rejected arbitration?

Wait until Verlander goes, and I guarantee you, he will.

Welcome back to the days when Toledo had more going for them then the parent club. Cleveland, you'll have company in the cellar.

LOL!!!

You're a funny guy.

[Hammer]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

I know where he's coming from. I've been there, most recently after the 12th inning of the playoff game, after Gerald Laird went to the plate with a whiffle ball bat.

[Terrierbyassociation]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

A friend of mine is a writer/blogger/sports talk radio host and this was his reply to your post that I sent him...

"I've received texts, emails, phone calls, tons of communication today from scouts, coaches, front office types, etc., and I've heard nary a one say they don't like the deal for the Tigers. One AL Central official I exchanged emails with today basically said the reaction around him today was "Oh Sh**! We're going to have to do something to keep up long term." When I asked if that meant they weren't worried about 2010, he responded "Oh no, we're still worried about next year. That pitching is *** stupid good!"

It's a pretty common sentiment among industry insiders, that the Tigers did very well in this deal....

The Tigers did OK. The Yankees fleeced everyone and made out like bandits. Kennedy is worthless. Austin Jackson is a work and progress and for every scout and insider who has said he's awesome there has been a naysayer in kind. But comparing their haul to the Yankees isn't the same because the Yankees didn't give up anything of value while the Tigers did. Max is the real deal, TINSTAAP and all that but Tigers fans should be excited about him. Schlereth we'll have to wait to see on him.

Giving up Edwin Jackson isn't a problem.

But make no mistake the team that won this was the Yankees who gave up very little and got back a lot in Granderson.

The team that got absolutely skull screwed was the D-Backs. Cannot figure them out.

[Bronco]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

Oh, and the thought just dawned on me that you really need to pick Granderson higher in your fantasy baseball league this season if the Yankees do nothing to 'fix' the homers in the new Yankee Stadium. Grandy will have 50 homers next season if they don't.

Oh, and I'll miss Polonco. Even if he's trashing us slightly and couldn't hit the ball in the World Series.

Last thing, anyone counting on Zumaya throwing a whole season in the pen?(rhetorical)

[Hammer]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

No.

Anything we get out of Zumaya that stays in the ballpark is now a bonus. You can't rely on a guy that hasn't finished the last three seasons healthy.

[bronconick]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

Last thing, anyone counting on Zumaya throwing a whole season in the pen?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Right. Maybe if we combine Bonderman, Willis and Zumaya we can get 9 innings. For the season.

Illitch has to be sitting back and wondering if Willis is worse than the Hatcher and Krupp deals on his other team.

Edit: I'll be shocked if this team wins 70 games as things stand. Plenty of good seats by July.

[Hammer]

Re: Detroit Tigers, 2009, Part III: How long does it take for Leyland to screw this up?

While the dollars are bigger, they're not worse. Krupp and Hatcher were counted on to be the #2 defensemen on the Wings. Similar to the #2 Tiger starter, if you will. It's going to tear an unholy chunk out of the checkbook, but I don't believe that it will hurt the Tigers as badly as Krupp and Hatcher hurt the Wings.