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  • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

    Originally posted by Bakunin View Post
    Isn't the market for pretty much anything an interstate one these days?
    Based on the feds using interstate commerce to justify raiding your pot garden grown for personal use in a state that doesn't forbid personal use, yes.
    "I went over the facts in my head, and admired how much uglier the situation had just become. Over the years I've learned that ignorance is more than just bliss. It's freaking orgasmic ecstasy".- Harry Dresden, Blood Rites


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    • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

      Originally posted by MinnFan View Post
      I find it interesting that nobody that leans left here has come up with where the limit of gov't power should be yet.

      To my mind, if the individual mandate is held up then there is no limit to gov't power anymore and the constitution is now worthless. Regardless I'm very curious to read the opinion from the democrat nominated (is that a better term) justices to see how they think congress gets that power from.
      Conscription wasn't a strictly enumerated power.

      So there already was no limit to government power, and the constitution was already worthless.

      Since Vietnam, it's just been anarchy.

      /hyperbole

      Seriously, though, I don't question that a constitutional argument can be made against the mandate. I do question whether the real issue is constitutionalism, but maybe that's another thread.
      1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1995 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2012(!)

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      • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

        Originally posted by GrinCDXX View Post
        This seems like an exercise purely in semantics...
        Interesting, you use the word "purely" to dismiss the observation out of hand without responding at all.....

        Most people use words to frame their thoughts, and so one's choice of words affects what thoughts might be available.*

        To me, the concept of "single payor" is both well-intentioned, and also a covert way to infantilize people...."don't worry, mommy and daddy are here to take care of things for you." Highly-cynical people often use the lure of "free" goodies deliberately to inculcate a sense of dependency in people who do need help. However, rather than "help" them through a difficult time while also helping them learn better to care for themselves in the future, the "help" comes with a very serious "string" attached: you can only continue to receive that "help" as long as we are in power to give it to you.

        People rightly criticize capitalism for its inherent tendency to divide society into "haves" and "have nots" yet progressivism does exactly the same thing: either you run the government (and get to ride around on fancy airplanes at taxpayer expense) or you depend upon the government (or I suppose you turn over half of your income to the government for the privilege of having such a wonderful government in charge of your life).

        It seems to me that any viable healthcare system must include people taking responsibility for their own outcomes. There always has to be at least a dual-payor system (if not more): the individual him/herself, and some other funding source.




        * not sure how many people have learned a foreign language as an adult. Typically, one subconsciously assumes that the other person "really" is thinking in your language, and only is speaking their language. At first we translate their words into our language, formulate our response, and then translate back into their language again. Once you become fluent in the other language, you actually start to think in that language as well. When you do, you generally find that there are certain words that just can't be translated: you start to say "it's sort of like..." followed by a sentence or two.

        I recall visiting a friend at work who worked for KLM Royal Dutch Airlines. She was talking on the phone to someone from headquarters in Dutch, then hung up the phone and started speaking to me in Dutch as well. It was only when she saw the puzzled look on my face that she asked, "oh, am I still speaking Dutch? I'm sorry." She was not consciously aware of which language she was speaking.

        I guess this is an extremely long-winded way of saying that "yes, it is semantics" and also "no it is not 'purely' semantics."

        One of the challenges I have from time to time is that I also learned to think in symbols, and it can be tricky to translate symbolic thinking into any language using words. It was eerie when we were moving and I found my old quantum mechanics notebood from college. I recognized my handwriting and knew that I could manipulate all those symbols at that time, and had lost the facility of that due to lack of constant use.
        Last edited by FreshFish; 03-30-2012, 11:46 AM.
        "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

        "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

        "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

        "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

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        • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

          Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
          The solicitor general is an idiot.
          Actually, I thought the Solicitor General did a pretty good job arguing a pretty weak case. The drafters of the law totally ignored Constitutional issues entirely, which put him in a tough spot.
          "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

          "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

          "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

          "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

          Comment


          • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

            Originally posted by FlagDUDE08 View Post
            What is it with Cornell grads trying to assume my words on another tangent blah bah blah blah
            Nice rant. But it was a joke.

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            • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

              Originally posted by amherstblackbear View Post
              Conscription wasn't a strictly enumerated power..
              I'm not quite sure if this language from Article II, Section II covers that or not....kind of vague...

              The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States
              "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

              "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

              "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

              "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

              Comment


              • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

                Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                I'm not quite sure if this language from Article II, Section II covers that or not....kind of vague...
                The Constitution was designed to be vague, so that it could continue to work with an evolving nation. Of course, that also assumes that the nation continues to use the Constitution.

                Comment


                • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

                  That's kind of my point.

                  I'm suspicious of arguments from "strict construction" because so many questions are indeterminate.

                  So the result is everyone is a strict constructionist when the case involves a policy they dislike, and an "intentionally vague, living document"-type when the case involves a policy they *do* support.
                  1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1995 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2012(!)

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                  • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

                    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                    Interesting, you use the word "purely" to dismiss the observation out of hand without responding at all.....

                    Most people use words to frame their thoughts, and so one's choice of words affects what thoughts might be available.*

                    To me, the concept of "single payor" is both well-intentioned, and also a covert way to infantilize people...."don't worry, mommy and daddy are here to take care of things for you." Highly-cynical people often use the lure of "free" goodies deliberately to inculcate a sense of dependency in people who do need help. However, rather than "help" them through a difficult time while also helping them learn better to care for themselves in the future, the "help" comes with a very serious "string" attached: you can only continue to receive that "help" as long as we are in power to give it to you.

                    People rightly criticize capitalism for its inherent tendency to divide society into "haves" and "have nots" yet progressivism does exactly the same thing: either you run the government (and get to ride around on fancy airplanes at taxpayer expense) or you depend upon the government (or I suppose you turn over half of your income to the government for the privilege of having such a wonderful government in charge of your life).

                    It seems to me that any viable healthcare system must include people taking responsibility for their own outcomes. There always has to be at least a dual-payor system (if not more): the individual him/herself, and some other funding source.




                    * not sure how many people have learned a foreign language as an adult. Typically, one subconsciously assumes that the other person "really" is thinking in your language, and only is speaking their language. At first we translate their words into our language, formulate our response, and then translate back into their language again. Once you become fluent in the other language, you actually start to think in that language as well. When you do, you generally find that there are certain words that just can't be translated: you start to say "it's sort of like..." followed by a sentence or two.

                    I recall visiting a friend at work who worked for KLM Royal Dutch Airlines. She was talking on the phone to someone from headquarters in Dutch, then hung up the phone and started speaking to me in Dutch as well. It was only when she saw the puzzled look on my face that she asked, "oh, am I still speaking Dutch? I'm sorry." She was not consciously aware of which language she was speaking.

                    I guess this is an extremely long-winded way of saying that "yes, it is semantics" and also "no it is not 'purely' semantics."

                    One of the challenges I have from time to time is that I also learned to think in symbols, and it can be tricky to translate symbolic thinking into any language using words. It was eerie when we were moving and I found my old quantum mechanics notebood from college. I recognized my handwriting and knew that I could manipulate all those symbols at that time, and had lost the facility of that due to lack of constant use.
                    I certainly didn't intend to dismiss anything other than a potential discussion on how imperfectly the term single-payor captures the essence of the system it's meant to describe.

                    Comment


                    • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

                      Originally posted by GrinCDXX View Post
                      I certainly didn't intend to dismiss anything other than a potential discussion on how imperfectly the term single-payor captures the essence of the system it's meant to describe.
                      I understand, thanks. Did not mean to direct any "rant" at you personally. There are a few people who seem to think that we'd be in utopian bliss if we only had government pay for everything, and I sometimes am a bit impatient with their naivete.
                      "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                      "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                      "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                      "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                      Comment


                      • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

                        Interesting speculation in the Wall St Journal today....basically, IF Kennedy decides to support the Constitutionality of PPACA, then Roberts also would vote in favor, so that he could write the opinion (and by implication make it as restrictive as possible).

                        How amusing would that be, if the PPACA is upheld yet the four liberal justices write a dissenting opinion anyway!!
                        "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                        "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                        "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                        "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                        Comment


                        • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

                          That would be the worst of all possible worlds for the GOP politically, though. Not only would it be upheld, but they couldn't do their usual "liberal activist judges" bit. I mean, they could, but it would ring even more hollow than usual.

                          I love that Court watchers are saying they have "no idea" how Kennedy is going to rule. There's something marvelously chaotic about that. It also indicates that it's not just paint-by-numbers ideology for one member of the Court.
                          Cornell University
                          National Champion 1967, 1970
                          ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                          Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                          • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

                            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                            That would be the worst of all possible worlds for the GOP politically, though. Not only would it be upheld, but they couldn't do their usual "liberal activist judges" bit. I mean, they could, but it would ring even more hollow than usual.

                            I love that Court watchers are saying they have "no idea" how Kennedy is going to rule. There's something marvelously chaotic about that. It also indicates that it's not just paint-by-numbers ideology for one member of the Court.
                            I think it shows we live in a sad time when you know the Supreme Court outcome will be 5-4.

                            Comment


                            • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

                              Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                              I love that Court watchers are saying they have "no idea" how Kennedy is going to rule. There's something marvelously chaotic about that. It also indicates that it's not just paint-by-numbers ideology for [at least] one member of the Court.
                              Many court watchers apparently were also surprised when Roberts appeared unsympathetic to the plaintiffs regarding the Medicare mandate..."they had no trouble accepting the money before" or something like that.

                              It does sadden me when it appears that some of the Justices already have their conclusions and then work backward to find some contorted twisted convoluted reasoning to justify it. "Penumbras" that "emanate" from the Constitution, how shoddy a line of reasoning is that! especially when one could advance arguments of a much higher quality and still arrive at the desired result.

                              It scares me when a Justice says publicly that people should have a constitutional right to certain material things, has that woman (Ginsberg) never heard of scarcity? talk about an insular sheltered lifestyle!

                              From time to time they do produce unusual alignments. Scalia and Roberts have surprised me more than once with their flexibility.

                              If I had to rank them on a spectrum, I'd put Alito and Thomas together on the far right, Scalia to the right, Roberts to the right of center, Kennedy in the center, Sotomayor to the left of center (this "wise Latina woman" does appear to be much more than just an affirmative action choice, she probably will surprise Obama by her ability to think independently rather than respond reflexively), and then Ginsberg, Breyer, and Kagan far left.

                              Given that an outright majority of people in the US view themselves as right or center-right, the Court's make-up is skewed slightly to the left of the population these days, but only slightly. The problem for me is that I don't see much in the way of actual reasoning from Breyer, Ginsberg, or Kagan; I see more cleverness in developing justification after the fact. Roberts is refreshing; yes he slants to the right but not reflexively so, but thoughtfully so. Thomas is just an enigma to me.
                              Last edited by FreshFish; 03-30-2012, 03:55 PM.
                              "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                              "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                              "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                              "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                              Comment


                              • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

                                Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                                That would be the worst of all possible worlds for the GOP politically, though.
                                When essential liberty is at stake, why do transient policital calculations even matter in the slightest?
                                "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                                "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                                "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                                "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                                Comment

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