The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

[Kepler]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

As for knowing right and wrong, well, some people identify with things that inform then on what is right and wrong, and some people go down the philosophical road that there is no true right and wrong because everything is relative. these two approaches don't mix easily.

They need to, though, because each of those philosophies is as old as humanity and will go on forever. And at the end of the day, whether your final authority is Mosaic Law, Nature Worship, Functionalist Evolution, or Carl Sagan (PBUH) the amount of overlap of values dwarfs the areas of tension.

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

Isn't that really what DOMA does?

Yes and no. It allows states to not recognize same-sex marriages from other states. However, it defines a marriage as a heterosexual marriage on the federal level.

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

They need to, though, because each of those philosophies is as old as humanity and will go on forever. And at the end of the day, whether your final authority is Mosaic Law, Nature Worship, Functionalist Evolution, or Carl Sagan (PBUH) the amount of overlap of values dwarfs the areas of tension.

That last conclusion is certainly open to debate. Maybe you're right if you just look at surface values. But if you delve deeper, I think you find much more significant differences and things that are simply polar opposites.

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

Yes and no. It allows states to not recognize same-sex marriages from other states. However, it defines a marriage as a heterosexual marriage on the federal level.

Well yes, but it does allow each state to decide for itself (by not forcing one state to accept another state's decision on gay marriage).

[Kepler]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

That last conclusion is certainly open to debate. Maybe you're right if you just look at surface values. But if you delve deeper, I think you find much more significant differences and things that are simply polar opposites.

There are certainly differences, but I actually think it's the opposite -- the noise is on the surface, the core values are nearly identical, at least within western culture. That may be because Christianity dominated western ethical thought for roughly one thousand years (say, 600 to 1600) so that it permeates even secular thought today. Or it may be because the golden rule is pretty obvious and it takes a lot of fancy rationalization to get around. Or it may be because we all share biological-determined aims liking keeping our kids safe and our tribe in ascendancy that gave rise to faiths in the first place. In any case, although thinking about it is very interesting, that common ground will help us "just get along," compromising where possible (civil unions), drawing a line when something is simply too much to bear (resolving ties with shoot outs).

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

There are certainly differences, but I actually think it's the opposite -- the noise is on the surface, the core values are nearly identical, at least within western culture. That may be because Christianity dominated western ethical thought for roughly one thousand years (say, 600 to 1600) so that it permeates even secular thought today. Or it may be because the golden rule is pretty obvious and it takes a lot of fancy rationalization to get around. Or it may be because we all share biological-determined aims liking keeping our kids safe and our tribe in ascendancy that gave rise to faiths in the first place. In any case, although thinking about it is very interesting, that common ground will help us "just get along," compromising where possible (civil unions), drawing a line when something is simply too much to bear (resolving ties with shoot outs).

There are a whole lot of assumptions built into what you've just said there though. I hesitate to discuss in detail because I'll get the usual assortment of folks climbing all over me. For example, you cite certain things that give rise to faiths. Suffice it to say, for example, Christianity didn't come into place because of aims like keeping kids safe or your tribe in ascendency. Life and existence and what we do are given purpose within God's created order and his plan for relationship with man. Very different than how Carl Sagan saw things. Now, on the surface they might seem to result in similar behaviors at times, but the underlying belief system and purpose for what is done are radically different.

[Priceless]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

It's very simple. We can't allow Adam and Steve to get married because we have to protect the sanctity of Tiger's marriage.

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

It's very simple. We can't allow Adam and Steve to get married because we have to protect the sanctity of Tiger's marriage.

Kepler,

This is the kind of stuff that keeps us from every having a good discussion.

[Priceless]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

Kepler,

This is the kind of stuff that keeps us from every having a good discussion.

Discuss whatever you want. At the end of this debate this statement sums up your side of the argument.

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

Discuss whatever you want. At the end of this debate this statement sums up your side of the argument.

Do you realize how immature you are on this board sometimes?

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

There is little doubt that marriage has become devalued because of the complete lack of respect that many heterosexual couples give to the union. At some point I have a feeling this battle will be won by gays and lesbians because heterosexual couples have made a mockery of marriage so how could anyone say it would get any worse by preventing same sex marriage?

[Priceless]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

Do you realize how immature you are on this board sometimes?

I cut through the crap and call it like I see it.

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

I cut through the crap and call it like I see it.

Go ahead and tell yourself that. There's a way to do that decently.

[Foxton]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

There is little doubt that marriage has become devalued because of the complete lack of respect that many heterosexual couples give to the union. At some point I have a feeling this battle will be won by gays and lesbians because heterosexual couples have made a mockery of marriage so how could anyone say it would get any worse by preventing same sex marriage?

So we should get back to multiple partners, dowries, and lots of other things that have that old timey sexist and racist goodness.

Marriage is nothing more than a social construct to signify the union between two or as has been the case often throughout history, more than two people. That religion has made such a huge push to make it into something sacred doesn't change it from being just another social contract that they have no more hold over than anyone else. Even if all marriages really became "civil unions" everyone would just say they're married anyways.

Also, allowing lesbian/gay marriage isn't some attempt to devalue it. If they held such little esteem for it there wouldn't be any fight to be able to do it.

[Priceless]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

There's a way to do that decently.

But not honestly.