Gaza 2023: The Next Episode

[Russell Jaslow]

So damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'll accept protesters who want humans to be treated humanely.

Fair enough. But I'll also go back to one of my original points. Why didn't we see any of these types of protests for any other conflict who want humans to be treated humanly?

And, IMHO, Hamas is just saying that for effect. Has it actually helped them? If people get their way, Israel will leave ordinary people more alone and then focus on Hamas. One thing for sure, labeling all protesters anti-Semite is pretty pointless. And also falls into Hamas' hands in the attempt to pull people apart.

It helps them politically. Sure Hamas is saying stuff for effect. But the overall attitude against Jews in general definitely helps Hamas. And like I've said repeatedly, which nobody has responded to, this has allowed the world to forget the atrocities of October 7. It all falls into proof of Dana Horn's book, People Love Dead Jews.

[Russell Jaslow]

My kids witnessed the protests at UM up close. I asked them about the "pro-Hamas" contingent and both said it was non-exustent. I am sure it's out there but it's fringe.

I mean does protesting the protestors make someone a Muslim hater? Can't have it both ways.

For crying out loud, I never said most of these protestors are openly pro-Hamas. I've said these protests are doing Hamas' bidding by "normalizing" Hamas.

[MichVandal]

Fair enough.



It helps them politically. Sure Hamas is saying stuff for effect. But the overall attitude against Jews in general definitely helps Hamas. And like I've said repeatedly, which nobody has responded to, this has allowed the world to forget the atrocities of October 7. It all falls into proof of Dana Horn's book, People Love Dead Jews.

Attitude against Jews, sure, but that forwards anyone who hates Jews. But to blanket everyone (as in saying nobody) is also lazy. People haven't forgotten, what they are seeing is a response that may not be the right one. People have been giving Israel more the benefit of the doubt for a long time- which is why it's now May and not camping in October/November.

By saying "nobody" that suggests that a vast majority of people do love dead Jews, and I just don't accept that premise. Most people like live people.

Hamas was horribly evil on Oct 7. Punish them. There's little point in punishing normal people for just living in an area. Punishing people for the sake of it (two eyes for an eye theory) is more counter productive than useful. History has pointed that out repeatedly. If Bibi isn't aware of that, then he's really not qualified to lead this. Especially when his people have been the target of that so very many times over history.

[Slap Shot]

For crying out loud, I never said most of these protestors are openly pro-Hamas. I've said these protests are doing Hamas' bidding by "normalizing" Hamas.

They are normalizing Hamas?

jfc never mind - that's an even more insipid argument.

[Russell Jaslow]

They are normalizing Hamas?

jfc never mind - that's an even more insipid argument.

They absolutely are. You're too blind to see it.

[MichVandal]

They absolutely are. You're too blind to see it.

You'll have to explain how protesting against killing normal people is normalizing hamas. That's kind of their playbook. Given how they are using the public for PR reasons, it's not as if hamas really cares about the people they are trying to "protect".

Normal people just trying to survive have no real chance of stopping Hamas, as they were not *really* voted to be the ones leading the terrorist fight- they are just doing it. But putting no effort into not killing normal people certainly pushes them toward becoming hamas supporters, as what else can they do?

BTW, one more time- protesting against what Israel is doing isn't being anti-Semitic. Sure, some people are, and are using the opportunity to further their anti-Semitic stance, but many others are not. You keep bringing that up that "nobody" cares about Oct 7, which means "everyone" wants to see hamas prevail. And that protesters are part of the crowd that want to see Jews die.

Please don't post that you are not saying that, as you keep bringing it up.

[psych]

Your point and my point are not mutually exclusive.

No matter what government was in power on October 7, the response would have been pretty much what we are seeing now. I'm convinced of that. I've studied Israel my whole life. I spent a whole summer there. You don't understand the feelings (and quite frankly, some of those feelings are not nice) the common Israeli citizen has and what they expect from whatever government is in power. The retribution after October 7 would have been at a similar scale, no matter the government.

But that doesn't disprove your point either.

And speaking of destroying other countries, educate yourself. Research Black September. Research the collapse of Lebanon after Black September (and the treatment of Lebanese Christians by the PLO). There is a reason why Arab countries no longer want anything to do with Palestinians and their terrorist groups. Why do you think Egypt refuses to open their Gaza border, which could save thousands? Why do you think Saudi Arabia is still going ahead with normalizing relations with Israel? Palestine is old news for these Arab countries. They don't give a crap anymore. Yet, there is no criticism aimed at them. (And I'm not even going to get into the question of what Jordan did, or more accurately did not do, when they occupied the West Bank from 1948-1967.)

I’ll take your word that any Israeli government, not just Netanyahu’s, would have responded in a f-cking ridiculous display of disproportionality.
As for educating myself, make sure you learn to read good and do other things good too, bro. I said “countries’ militaries”, not “countries.” Adding “military” to the end of country there means I’m saying Israel is adept at destroying militaries far bigger and stronger than Hamas, without destroying that country’s people. The rest of your sh-t about Egypt and Jordan not helping Palestinians is irrelevant to what I’m discussing with you.

[MichVandal]

And speaking of destroying other countries, educate yourself. Research Black September. Research the collapse of Lebanon after Black September (and the treatment of Lebanese Christians by the PLO). There is a reason why Arab countries no longer want anything to do with Palestinians and their terrorist groups. Why do you think Egypt refuses to open their Gaza border, which could save thousands? Why do you think Saudi Arabia is still going ahead with normalizing relations with Israel? Palestine is old news for these Arab countries. They don't give a crap anymore. Yet, there is no criticism aimed at them. (And I'm not even going to get into the question of what Jordan did, or more accurately did not do, when they occupied the West Bank from 1948-1967.)

BTW, a quick google search shows multiple articles about Egypt not allowing Palestinians to cross the border. So to say "no criticism" is pretty much like saying "nobody" is remembering what happened Oct 7.

It's not helpful to put blanket statements out there like that. Kind of undermines your greater point that Jews are under "total" attack. Kind of just corrects it to just Hamas and them manipulating people to defeat Israel.

[Russell Jaslow]

As for educating myself, make sure you learn to read good and do other things good too, bro. I said “countries’ militaries”, not “countries.” Adding “military” to the end of country there means I’m saying Israel is adept at destroying militaries far bigger and stronger than Hamas, without destroying that country’s people. The rest of your sh-t about Egypt and Jordan not helping Palestinians is irrelevant to what I’m discussing with you.

Fair enough. But it is relevant to the overall discussion.

[Russell Jaslow]

BTW, a quick google search shows multiple articles about Egypt not allowing Palestinians to cross the border. So to say "no criticism" is pretty much like saying "nobody" is remembering what happened Oct 7.

It's not helpful to put blanket statements out there like that. Kind of undermines your greater point that Jews are under "total" attack. Kind of just corrects it to just Hamas and them manipulating people to defeat Israel.

Sure there are lots of articles. But where are the protests shutting down schools over it? Come one. I've enjoyed debating you, but there is a massive disproportionality between the two. And you know that.

[Russell Jaslow]

You'll have to explain how protesting against killing normal people is normalizing hamas. That's kind of their playbook. Given how they are using the public for PR reasons, it's not as if hamas really cares about the people they are trying to "protect".

Because terrorism works. That's the cold, hard truth people do not want to admit.

Heck, even Israel's existence was partially due to terrorism. Menachem Begin led the infamous King David Hotel bombing. He later became a Prime Minister.

The PLO (under a different name, the Palestinian Authority, but they are the same organization led by Abbas, who was Arafat's righthand man) now is the Israeli recognized governing body of the West Bank. And used to be the Gaza Strip as well, until Hamas kicked them out. Ironically, the PLO charter was also to eliminate Israel. That kind of stopped after Arafat and Sharon died.

Terrorism allows causes to be publicized. None of these protests would have occurred had Hamas not attacked Israel. That's why I keep saying Hamas knew exactly what was going to happen. And apparently, they had the plan in place to rally the campuses to their side. Because they knew how Israel was going to react.

No different than the IRA, which relied on Britain's overreaction. Or, the US overreacting to 9/11. Going into Afganistan was acceptable, going into Iraq was absurd. But countries always overreact. Heck, I just read a fascinating book on the Spartacus War. Talk about a country overreacting... (Throughout history, countries are always stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to terrrorism. They have to protect their citizens, that's their role, but they can never truly "win" a fight against terrorists. So, they go all gung ho. Kep always goes on about the Right, but he conveniently ignores how Obama increased the drone strike program by 10X! All governments are the same -- they overreact to a threat, especially a terrorists attack. Which is why I keep saying Israel would have responded similarly no matter what government was in power. Which is also why countries tend to always lost the propaganda war to "freedom fighters.")

How many of you would have ever known about the Basque separatists if it wasn't for the terrorist attacks in I think the '70s? Heck, even the Quebec separatists blew up a few mailboxes to get attention. How many people really paid attention to the Houthis which Saudia Arabia was trying to wipe out, until the Houthis started firing missiles at civilian ships and U.S. military bases?

How many would have paid much attention over the decades to the Palestinian cause had it not been for the attacks over the years by the PLO, Hamas, etc.? Even an attack on the Olympics wasn't enough for the world to say enough. Heck, Arafat instructed the PLO to increase attacks after 9/11. He was afraid the world would forget about the Palestinians and figured the U.S. was too busy to worry about Isreal.

You keep harping on the "protesting against killing normal people" mantra. You can't argue against that. But that's not what is going on here at a higher level. Again, Hamas knew what the chain of events was going to be. And as you say, they don't care about their own people. They only cared about getting their word out. It's a marketing campaign. The world was forgetting about the Palestinian cause, they attacked Israel, people started paying attention, before Hamas could be completely crucified by the world, Isreal reacted, and the world turned against Israel. And apparently Hamas had these college campus protests all planned out and funded.

The people protesting against killing normal people are doing the right thing. And that's what Hamas banked on. Because it's also causing the world to turn more and more against Israel (like demands to divest) making Hamas hope there is a weak spot to wipe it out. There were people in this thread who said they are getting sick and tired of Isreal and feel they can no longer support them. Exactly what Hamas wants. So all these protestors, even if they are doing the morally, ethical thing, are only doing it because of a terrorist attack. This is the "normalizing" I'm talking about.

Terrorism works. The protests are proving that.

BTW, one more time- protesting against what Israel is doing isn't being anti-Semitic. Sure, some people are, and are using the opportunity to further their anti-Semitic stance, but many others are not. You keep bringing that up that "nobody" cares about Oct 7, which means "everyone" wants to see hamas prevail. And that protesters are part of the crowd that want to see Jews die.

Please don't post that you are not saying that, as you keep bringing it up.

The two don't correlate. I may have said nobody cares about October 7, but that doesn't imply I mean everybody cares about Hamas. It means they are losing sight of the real issue -- terrorism works. And they are playing into those hands by getting people to hate on Isreal (which is true, not necessarily antisemitic, though it is if you think Israel should not exist).

I know this was long. We need to get back to watching the Miami GP.

[aparch]

Can't there be a position where you are pro Jewish, even pro Jewish state, but against how this is being handled and against the current leaders of Israel?

No because the far-right wants clear battle lines. No gray areas, no compromises, just straight up 'here's the line' and it never changes. Unless they want it to change.

So, being pro-Jewish, pro-Jewish state, but against Bibi and his goon squad means you're anti-semetic. Pro-Palestinian people but anti-Hamas? Might as well fly an ISIS flag you freak.

[Russell Jaslow]

No because the far-right wants clear battle lines. No gray areas, no compromises, just straight up 'here's the line' and it never changes. Unless they want it to change.

So, being pro-Jewish, pro-Jewish state, but against Bibi and his goon squad means you're anti-semetic. Pro-Palestinian people but anti-Hamas? Might as well fly an ISIS flag you freak.

I think we all need to call a truce on this discussion. :-)

[MichVandal]

Sure there are lots of articles. But where are the protests shutting down schools over it? Come one. I've enjoyed debating you, but there is a massive disproportionality between the two. And you know that.

Well, that's easy. Egypt isn't killing anyone. Nobody is protesting Israel not allowing Palestinians being allowed into Israel en-masse. Heck, not many are even protesting the continued oppression of Palestinians that has been going on for decades. So what Egypt is not doing is pretty much the same thing Israel does every single day.

What's happened now is the rater disproportional response, taken out on people who are just trying to get along. Unless I missed some massive college protests before Hamas attacked and the response happened.

Still, questioning the response that isn't as targeted as Israel has shown in past fights isn't anti-Semitic, it's not anti Israel, it's not pro Hamas. You are reading that, which is fine, but lets not use words like "everyone", "nobody", "all the time"- as that's totally inaccurate.

[MichVandal]

Because terrorism works. That's the cold, hard truth people do not want to admit.

Heck, even Israel's existence was partially due to terrorism. Menachem Begin led the infamous King David Hotel bombing. He later became a Prime Minister.

The PLO (under a different name, the Palestinian Authority, but they are the same organization led by Abbas, who was Arafat's righthand man) now is the Israeli recognized governing body of the West Bank. And used to be the Gaza Strip as well, until Hamas kicked them out. Ironically, the PLO charter was also to eliminate Israel. That kind of stopped after Arafat and Sharon died.

Terrorism allows causes to be publicized. None of these protests would have occurred had Hamas not attacked Israel. That's why I keep saying Hamas knew exactly what was going to happen. And apparently, they had the plan in place to rally the campuses to their side. Because they knew how Israel was going to react.

No different than the IRA, which relied on Britain's overreaction. Or, the US overreacting to 9/11. Going into Afganistan was acceptable, going into Iraq was absurd. But countries always overreact. Heck, I just read a fascinating book on the Spartacus War. Talk about a country overreacting... (Throughout history, countries are always stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to terrrorism. They have to protect their citizens, that's their role, but they can never truly "win" a fight against terrorists. So, they go all gung ho. Kep always goes on about the Right, but he conveniently ignores how Obama increased the drone strike program by 10X! All governments are the same -- they overreact to a threat, especially a terrorists attack. Which is why I keep saying Israel would have responded similarly no matter what government was in power. Which is also why countries tend to always lost the propaganda war to "freedom fighters.")

How many of you would have ever known about the Basque separatists if it wasn't for the terrorist attacks in I think the '70s? Heck, even the Quebec separatists blew up a few mailboxes to get attention. How many people really paid attention to the Houthis which Saudia Arabia was trying to wipe out, until the Houthis started firing missiles at civilian ships and U.S. military bases?

How many would have paid much attention over the decades to the Palestinian cause had it not been for the attacks over the years by the PLO, Hamas, etc.? Even an attack on the Olympics wasn't enough for the world to say enough. Heck, Arafat instructed the PLO to increase attacks after 9/11. He was afraid the world would forget about the Palestinians and figured the U.S. was too busy to worry about Isreal.

You keep harping on the "protesting against killing normal people" mantra. You can't argue against that. But that's not what is going on here at a higher level. Again, Hamas knew what the chain of events was going to be. And as you say, they don't care about their own people. They only cared about getting their word out. It's a marketing campaign. The world was forgetting about the Palestinian cause, they attacked Israel, people started paying attention, before Hamas could be completely crucified by the world, Isreal reacted, and the world turned against Israel. And apparently Hamas had these college campus protests all planned out and funded.

The people protesting against killing normal people are doing the right thing. And that's what Hamas banked on. Because it's also causing the world to turn more and more against Israel (like demands to divest) making Hamas hope there is a weak spot to wipe it out. There were people in this thread who said they are getting sick and tired of Isreal and feel they can no longer support them. Exactly what Hamas wants. So all these protestors, even if they are doing the morally, ethical thing, are only doing it because of a terrorist attack. This is the "normalizing" I'm talking about.

Terrorism works. The protests are proving that.



The two don't correlate. I may have said nobody cares about October 7, but that doesn't imply I mean everybody cares about Hamas. It means they are losing sight of the real issue -- terrorism works. And they are playing into those hands by getting people to hate on Isreal (which is true, not necessarily antisemitic, though it is if you think Israel should not exist).

I know this was long. We need to get back to watching the Miami GP.

What "higher level" are you talking about?

Israel is supposed to have the best intel service in the world, right? And some of the best of the best fighters in the world, too. So why take it out on everyone instead of focusing on using their skill and knowledge to focus on Hamas? Makes little sense to me.

And extrapolating "sick and tired" of the response- do you honestly think that people are sick and tired of Israel as a country? When the reality us that people are sick of seeing people like Bibi take his frustrations out on other people. Give people some credit, man. It's not against the country, it's against the leadership. Again, I find taking protests against Israel's response and turning that into a suggestion of mass anti-Semitism is lazy and dishonest- pretty much exactly what Hamas is so good at doing.

If it REALLY was about normalizing Hamas, then people would be protesting to actively see Hamas attack Israel. That's normalizing terrorism as a thing to do. Again, saying that Israel may be going over the line in dealing with Hamas IS NOT supporting Hamas attacking Israel.

Unless you think people around the world who are sick and tired of US leaders like dumpy actually want to see the US fail as a whole. Sure, some do, but when huge masses of people make a living selling stuff to US, even when they hate the leadership- they don't want to see the US actually fail. And by people, I mean the people who just want to make a living, raise a family, and try to see their kids do better than them. Not the politicians who say things.