Gaza 2023: The Next Episode

[Jimjamesak]

I’m either getting old and being a bad leftist because my thought the entire time these protests have been going on is “you’re not *ing helping. In fact, you’re going to make things worse.”

[SJHovey]

Can anyone a little older than me answer this?

how is anything happening on campuses right now drastically different than prior campus protests? Didn’t the anti war protests get pretty big back in the day?

im guessing social media, a corrupt media and schools calling in the riot police are the big differences?

sure, the girls in the hijabs last night at Minnesota shouting “go home to Germany and Poland” suck seem to want to be little terrorists. But I also think both sides are instigating crap for outrage videos, plus outside instigators happily jumping in

The REI tents they're using today are a dramatic upgrade from the "stick and blanket" variety used in the late 60's or early 70's protests.

Seriously, I don't think there is significant difference, at least from what I see. My wife and I, both of whom are old enough to remember the Vietnam war protests, were actually talking about just that last night as we watched some news highlights. Just a very similar vibe, although maybe with one exception.

In the Vietnam protests, the protestors were actually scared. The next people sent to Vietnam could be them, with a bad turn of luck, and no one wanted to be sent to Vietnam, I can assure you. Plus, there wasn't the angry conflict between two different groups of protestors. It was a protest against the government, and the protestors were generally unified. It was them against the establishment. This honestly feels more like two gangs (I realize that's probably not a great word or analogy) fighting against one another, with the public watching in horror, wonderment, anger, etc..., and the government sort of paralyzed.

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Thank you. I agree it feels like two gangs. Seeing Muslim students physically barring Jewish students from getting to class is jarring (and again, could the students have gone a different route to class to avoid confrontation, I dunno).

but i suspect there’s tons of similarities to Vietnam protests and some of the boomers are forgetting this has happened before

[SJHovey]

Thank you. I agree it feels like two gangs. Seeing Muslim students physically barring Jewish students from getting to class is jarring (and again, could the students have gone a different route to class to avoid confrontation, I dunno).

but i suspect there’s tons of similarities to Vietnam protests and some of the boomers are forgetting this has happened before

Yeah, things are sort of taking a nasty turn in the "protest" field.

Fifty years ago, there were the protestors, a few people watching them, and then the cops trying to corral them. Now, it feels like for every protest there is a need for a counter protest, or for a large accumulation of people to argue the other side.

We are seeing it right now with the prosecution of the highway patrolman in the Twin Cities. There are supporters of the family of the victim of the shooting, but now there is an even larger group of protestors supporting the highway patrolman, protesting the prosecution, and protesting the other protestors, I suppose. Both groups summoned on a moment's notice with their coordinated clothing and signs. I expect as the prosecution goes on, the size of each group will only expand.

I guess the days of watching a protest, then going home and giving the protest some thought, are long past. Everyone must be confronted and shouted down.

I'm glad I'm old.

[Kepler]

I’m either getting old and being a bad leftist because my thought the entire time these protests have been going on is “you’re not *ing helping. In fact, you’re going to make things worse.”

Protests are about making change happen. Change typically happens against the wishes of the middle class, not with their blessing. Otherwise protest would not be necessary -- ordinary electoral politics would be enough.

At its best, protest takes the compromises and hypocrisies of the average voter and rubs his face in it, until it becomes so unbearable he says uncle and agrees to change, just so he can have his illusion of being a good person back again.

Here's a good rule of thumb: the side calling for the police to break the heads of the other side is the bad guys.

[Jimjamesak]

Protests are about making change happen. Change typically happens against the wishes of the middle class, not with their blessing. Otherwise protest would not be necessary -- ordinary electoral politics would be enough.

At its best, protest takes the compromises and hypocrisies of the average voter and rubs his face in it, until it becomes so unbearable he says uncle and agrees to change, just so he can have his illusion of being a good person back again.

Here's a good rule of thumb: the side calling for the police to break the heads of the other side is the bad guys.

I know why they’re protesting and I think it’s dumb. Call me heartless but I really don’t give a * about Palestine. I don’t really *ing care about Israel either for that matter. I’ve never understood why this whole thing has been cause celebre for leftists.

Like pretty much everything involving that whole region, there are no good guys on either side of this whole thing.

tl;dr Cops bad, students dumb.

[walrus]

I don't remember students against students back in Vietnam protest days, it was them against establishment. But I was in Orono not near any large campus and probably not old enough to pay to close attention. at least until my brother went to vietnam.

[dxmnkd316]

Protests are about making change happen. Change typically happens against the wishes of the middle class, not with their blessing. Otherwise protest would not be necessary -- ordinary electoral politics would be enough.

At its best, protest takes the compromises and hypocrisies of the average voter and rubs his face in it, until it becomes so unbearable he says uncle and agrees to change, just so he can have his illusion of being a good person back again.

Here's a good rule of thumb: the side calling for the police to break the heads of the other side is the bad guys.

The problem is, this is America and the only thing protests have ever fixed are what amount to domestic issues. Zero protests have ever fixed an exclusively international issue. In fact, most of the time the right gets their jollies off while crushing the skulls of whatever group is making them uncomfortable.

The reason these protests are dumb is because the issue doesn't impact the average person. They aren't sending their young men off to die in the jungle. We aren't lynching anyone (yet...) who just wants to go to college or eat at the counter or ride the bus. All of our neighbors are coming home.

I agree we should cut off Israel. I agree BiBi should probably be charged with war crimes. But like, I don't see this accomplishing much.

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

The problem is, this is America and the only thing protests have ever fixed are what amount to domestic issues. Zero protests have ever fixed an exclusively international issue. In fact, most of the time the right gets their jollies off while crushing the skulls of whatever group is making them uncomfortable.

The reason these protests are dumb is because the issue doesn't impact the average person. They aren't sending their young men off to die in the jungle. We aren't lynching anyone (yet...) who just wants to go to college or eat at the counter or ride the bus. All of our neighbors are coming home.

I agree we should cut off Israel. I agree BiBi should probably be charged with war crimes. But like, I don't see this accomplishing much.

Come on, the audio of kids begging to go home and study for finals as police closed in last night didn’t move you? Or comparing themselves to Gazans needing water and food because they’re dehydrated?

I wish these kids had energy to do this for kids getting shot up at school or women not having bodily autonomy vs the worlds most complex problem where both sides are committted to continuing forever.

[dxmnkd316]

Come on, the audio of kids begging to go home and study for finals as police closed in last night didn’t move you? Or comparing themselves to Gazans needing water and food because they’re dehydrated?

I wish these kids had energy to do this for kids getting shot up at school or women not having bodily autonomy vs the worlds most complex problem where both sides are committted to continuing forever.

God that's the exact two things that went through my mind while I wrote that. It's infuriating!

there's a trend I've noticed with Gen Z. They're willing to give up something huge like 401k matching if it means they get a token benefit in exchange, like I don't know, flexible work hours. And I think that's kind of what's going on here. They're super up in arms about this (and they're right!) but they aren't going to accomplish **** and they'll have spent an enormous amount of political capital in the process.

Demands like divesting from Israel are just nonsensical. Almost every single person who owns a 401(k) or a mutual fund has a fairly healthy portion in defense stocks or whatever else divesting means. Even if they did somehow carve out these stocks from the index funds, it's not going to change a goddamn thing. It's a Pyrrhic victory.

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

it sounds like brown voted to divest and the kids dispersed quietly. I wonder that actually means to your point

[dxmnkd316]

it sounds like brown voted to divest and the kids dispersed quietly. I wonder that actually means to your point

I thought brown agreed to discuss it but it's "not on the official business for May's meeting" or something like that.

i also think it's because Brown agreed to let them protest for the rest of the year, but contingent on no tents and following the student code"

[unofan]

Come on, the audio of kids begging to go home and study for finals as police closed in last night didn’t move you? Or comparing themselves to Gazans needing water and food because they’re dehydrated?

If you're going to protest in the manner these students are doing (occupying buildings, disrupting classes, etc.) you have to expect you'll be arrested. Back in the day, protestors took arrests as badges of honor. That these kids think they should be able to do whatever they want without facing any consequences whatsoever is where they really lose me.

Bibi needed to go a decade ago, and he clearly is escalating tensions to serve his own needs first and foremost. But you also can't ignore what happened last October, either. If the Mexican drug cartels did to the southern U.S. what Hamas did to Israel, Mexico would've been a bombed out parking lot within the week.

And I agree with jim, how this became the youth left's cause celebre versus anything domestic that they might actually be able to change is mind-boggling.

[Russell Jaslow]

And I agree with jim, how this became the youth left's cause celebre versus anything domestic that they might actually be able to change is mind-boggling.

Because Jews are involved. The one thing the world hates more than Jews are Jews who fight back. The past seven months have proven that without a doubt.

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

I thought brown agreed to discuss it but it's "not on the official business for May's meeting" or something like that.

i also think it's because Brown agreed to let them protest for the rest of the year, but contingent on no tents and following the student code"

In a charming update, someone wrote “death to amerikkka” outside of Walter library at u of m