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  • #91
    Originally posted by Swansong View Post
    Plus, the idea that if we only had not done anything and just let people die in insane numbers while the rest of the world did mostly the right thing wouldn't have an unbelievable impact on the economy is just being willfully obtuse.
    You think he cares? Seriously?

    When people tell you who they are, believe them!
    "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
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    • #92
      Originally posted by French Rage View Post

      I'm trying to figure out what your point is here. Yes, I believe everyone knew the shutdowns were going to have definite reverberations. With an economy run on such a global, fine-tuned, just-in-time manner, even minor adjustments would be large aftershocks, to say nothing of major ones. The other solution was many many more dead; there was no answer where we didn't have negative repercussions, so we had to pick the least bad one. This was never sold as a perfect solution without any consequences and to pretend otherwise is ridiculous.

      Unfortunately the public has the mindspan of a gnat, and also thinks if they have someone to blame it magically gets better (it does not). So they'll inevitably put back in power the same people who whistled Dixie (literally) as this all went down and allowed it all to develop in the first place.
      Does an economy that has fewer people running it operate more efficiently? Asking for those who were pleading with us to recognize the economic costs when we said then- and still now- that lives saved meant more than the myriad economical costs that would inevitably follow.
      I’d personally see the country do the same thing over again- maybe double the length of time in lockdown and add in a functioning presidential administration.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Swansong View Post
        Plus, the idea that if we only had not done anything and just let people die in insane numbers while the rest of the world did mostly the right thing wouldn't have an unbelievable impact on the economy is just being willfully obtuse.
        Exactly. 3-4 million dead instead of over 1 million isn't exactly something you just sweep under the rug. Additionally, it's not like without shutdowns life would have been completely normal. The majority of people would have still modified their behavior, both in terms of work and consuming, as they still would have been seeing the effects of a more widespread and more fatal virus than even we saw. Even when restrictions were lifted various industries still were affected, as the lifting of restrictions didn't mean everything was immediately back out in large crowd licking each other's faces (Jeb's mom notwithstanding). So it was in no way an all or nothing choice economically.

        Cornell '04, Stanford '06


        KDR

        Rover Frenchy, Classic! Great post.
        iwh30 I wish I could be as smart as you. I really do you are the man
        gregg729 I just saw your sig, you do love having people revel in your "intelligence."
        Ritt18 you are the perfect representation of your alma mater.
        Miss Thundercat That's it, you win.
        TBA#2 I want to kill you and dance in your blood.
        DisplacedCornellian Hahaha. Thread over. Frenchy wins.

        Test to see if I can add this.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by French Rage View Post

          I'm trying to figure out what your point is here. Yes, I believe everyone knew the shutdowns were going to have definite reverberations. With an economy run on such a global, fine-tuned, just-in-time manner, even minor adjustments would be large aftershocks, to say nothing of major ones. The other solution was many many more dead; there was no answer where we didn't have negative repercussions, so we had to pick the least bad one. This was never sold as a perfect solution without any consequences and to pretend otherwise is ridiculous.

          Unfortunately the public has the mindspan of a gnat, and also thinks if they have someone to blame it magically gets better (it does not). So they'll inevitably put back in power the same people who whistled Dixie (literally) as this all went down and allowed it all to develop in the first place.
          You are not wrong in stating we were definitely between a rock and a hard place. I also agree there is no perfect solution.

          Personally, I hope I'm still alive 20-25 years from now, after scientists and economists and doctors will have had a chance to study and think about the pandemic, the various responses to it, and the after-effects on economies. I'm going to be interested in their findings. I also would really be interested in seeing how we will respond to the next pandemic. I have a hunch it's not going to be in the same way, but I don't know what that response will be.

          Edit. But if psych asks really nice, I'm willing to offer up a prediction.
          That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by French Rage View Post

            Exactly. 3-4 million dead instead of over 1 million isn't exactly something you just sweep under the rug. Additionally, it's not like without shutdowns life would have been completely normal. The majority of people would have still modified their behavior, both in terms of work and consuming, as they still would have been seeing the effects of a more widespread and more fatal virus than even we saw. Even when restrictions were lifted various industries still were affected, as the lifting of restrictions didn't mean everything was immediately back out in large crowd licking each other's faces (Jeb's mom notwithstanding). So it was in no way an all or nothing choice economically.
            I think Government just didn't handle the pandemic well at all. Planning for when we come out of it what was going to happen didn't happen. They're just letting the private sector handle it and the private sector absolutely blows at solving large scale problems. The Baby Formula thing and now the Gas thing are two great examples of it. Hell, by all reports the gas companies KNEW this was going to happen and WANTED it to happen cause they're getting theirs now. In Spades.
            **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

            Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
            Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Swansong View Post
              Plus, the idea that if we only had not done anything and just let people die in insane numbers while the rest of the world did mostly the right thing wouldn't have an unbelievable impact on the economy is just being willfully obtuse.
              There is a big difference between doing "nothing" (which I have never argued in favor of) and the response we took. Denying that is also being willfully obtuse.
              That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by SJHovey View Post

                You are not wrong in stating we were definitely between a rock and a hard place. I also agree there is no perfect solution.

                Personally, I hope I'm still alive 20-25 years from now, after scientists and economists and doctors will have had a chance to study and think about the pandemic, the various responses to it, and the after-effects on economies. I'm going to be interested in their findings. I also would really be interested in seeing how we will respond to the next pandemic. I have a hunch it's not going to be in the same way, but I don't know what that response will be.

                Edit. But if psych asks really nice, I'm willing to offer up a prediction.
                Yes, a larger sample size of data will help us make decisions going forward. But it's only part of the solution. The other part of the solution is to have people in charge who actually understand the value of those studies, take time to surround themselves with people who know and understand the value, and take the time and money to get blueprints and plan together based off of those studies, even though they may never have to be used. It's the thankless part of government work, the part that always get decried as a waste of the people's money, but it's one of the main parts silently greasing the wheels of our society in the background.

                And one group spent four years completely ignoring it. Read "The Fifth Risk" by Michael Lewis.

                Cornell '04, Stanford '06


                KDR

                Rover Frenchy, Classic! Great post.
                iwh30 I wish I could be as smart as you. I really do you are the man
                gregg729 I just saw your sig, you do love having people revel in your "intelligence."
                Ritt18 you are the perfect representation of your alma mater.
                Miss Thundercat That's it, you win.
                TBA#2 I want to kill you and dance in your blood.
                DisplacedCornellian Hahaha. Thread over. Frenchy wins.

                Test to see if I can add this.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post

                  I think Government just didn't handle the pandemic well at all. Planning for when we come out of it what was going to happen didn't happen. They're just letting the private sector handle it and the private sector absolutely blows at solving large scale problems. The Baby Formula thing and now the Gas thing are two great examples of it. Hell, by all reports the gas companies KNEW this was going to happen and WANTED it to happen cause they're getting theirs now. In Spades.
                  I mean, when you had half of the government as various levels not just sitting by doing nothing, but actively working against, the solutions during and immediately after the crisis, I don't know what was magically supposed to happen to get everyone working in tandem towards a meaningful solution.

                  Cornell '04, Stanford '06


                  KDR

                  Rover Frenchy, Classic! Great post.
                  iwh30 I wish I could be as smart as you. I really do you are the man
                  gregg729 I just saw your sig, you do love having people revel in your "intelligence."
                  Ritt18 you are the perfect representation of your alma mater.
                  Miss Thundercat That's it, you win.
                  TBA#2 I want to kill you and dance in your blood.
                  DisplacedCornellian Hahaha. Thread over. Frenchy wins.

                  Test to see if I can add this.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by French Rage View Post

                    I mean, when you had half of the government as various levels not just sitting by doing nothing, but actively working against, the solutions during and immediately after the crisis, I don't know what was magically supposed to happen to get everyone working in tandem towards a meaningful solution.
                    You lose your elections, Block legislation and then turn around and blame the dems for all the misery. Works like a charm

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by French Rage View Post

                      I mean, when you had half of the government as various levels not just sitting by doing nothing, but actively working against, the solutions during and immediately after the crisis, I don't know what was magically supposed to happen to get everyone working in tandem towards a meaningful solution.
                      Yes, we have an entire party in a two party system whose entire platform is to destroy the government and everything about it, except their personal jobs.
                      **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                      Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                      Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Kepler View Post

                        Evolve out. We created war so the most aggressive, patriotic, authoritarian genes would be removed from the pool before they could spread.

                        It was working. But then we extended war to murdering pacific civilian populations, which RUINS THE WHOLE IDEA.

                        We need to bring back mass standing armies of the rural poor that grind each other into dust. Balance the forces so the war just continues forever with neither side achieving any gains. A dozen generations of that and we could start seeing a change in the species for the better.
                        Europe from Marlborough thru Zhukov?
                        CCT '77 & '78
                        4 kids
                        5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                        1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                        ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                        - Benjamin Franklin

                        Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                        I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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                        • Originally posted by Handyman View Post

                          You think he cares? Seriously?

                          When people tell you who they are, believe them!
                          One of the flaws of liberal tolerance is continuing to turn the other cheek. American conservatives in their current incarnation are the enemy of civilization. Full stop. Cease believing they can become better; they neither can nor do they wish to. They are comfortable with what they are. Our failure to accept that is denial and weakness.

                          The Right embraced becoming a monster. It fed the monster that had been trapped inside them by the improvement of humanity. Now they are free, and their freedom constitutes the coercion of others to a model of humanity that is as brutal as they are. That is what we are dealing with. You have to understand what you are fighting, because it sure understands that as long as we hesitate they will continue to overwhelm us.

                          Nothing says Good has to win -- Obama was completely wrong about the arc of the moral universe. There is no magic. Evil wins frequently unless fought with intelligence and complete awareness.
                          Cornell University
                          National Champion 1967, 1970
                          ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                          Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                          • Originally posted by joecct View Post

                            Europe from Marlborough thru Zhukov?
                            Pax Britannica ruined everything, and the halt of Western evolution probably dates from that. Europe was in near constant warfare from approximately 800 to 1800. We got a lot of good genetic work done during that time. But I don't see any way to specifically target idiotic aggros for early death anym--- never mind, as you were.
                            Cornell University
                            National Champion 1967, 1970
                            ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                            Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                            • Originally posted by Kepler View Post

                              One of the flaws of liberal tolerance is continuing to turn the other cheek. American conservatives in their current incarnation are the enemy of civilization. Full stop. Cease believing they can become better; they neither can nor do they wish to. They are comfortable with what they are. Our failure to accept that is denial and weakness.

                              The Right embraced becoming a monster. It fed the monster that had been trapped inside them by the improvement of humanity. Now they are free, and their freedom constitutes the coercion of others to a model of humanity that is as brutal as they are. That is what we are dealing with. You have to understand what you are fighting, because it sure understands that as long as we hesitate they will continue to overwhelm us.

                              Nothing says Good has to win -- Obama was completely wrong about the arc of the moral universe. There is no magic. Evil wins frequently unless fought with intelligence and complete awareness.
                              People need to understand that one of the only things keeping conservatives in line, 20 years ago, was the concern of political revolt if their decisions were too extreme. Now, they don't fear that at all. They think the opposition is too weak. They're going to keep doing this.
                              https://twitter.com/ElieNYC/status/1540030176364568581
                              **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                              Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                              Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

                              Comment


                              • Man I hit a fucking nerve.
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                                As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
                                College Hockey 6       College Football 0
                                BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
                                Originally posted by SanTropez
                                May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                                Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                                I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                                Originally posted by Kepler
                                When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                                He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

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