TV 19 - Simpsons Did It

[unofan]

I'm with Kepler to the extent that if some bronze age relic can be better preserved here than in the middle east where it came from, we should keep it.

Imagine if we still had the great library at Alexandria. Imagine everything that was lost because people couldn't maintain them. What we have left is as much a product of luck as anything.

If (when) the US collapses in 50-1000 years, I want the library of Congress' collection to be saved. Who does the saving is irrelevant.

[ScoobyDoo]

I hate to be dark about this and I hope we can save it all but frankly having more concern over that than the actual planet seems backwards to me. And at this point that seems to be the case for everyone in the top 1%.

[Kepler]

Isn’t this contradictory?

All of these antiquities came out of, and in some way or fashion symbolize, ethnicity or politics or religion or culture at-large. If Benin’s politics and history don’t matter, why do we care about the bronzes that literally tell the story of the kingdom? By “preserving” them in the manner they have, the British have taken away the meaning behind them. So why display them then? Because they look neat? I’m sure plenty of neat art “belonging to humanity” can be displayed without the need for it to be stolen or trafficked.

It's not contradictory for two reasons.

1. It's not that culture doesn't matter, it's that the whimsical attitudes of peoples towards what they call their cultures don't matter. The current population of Greece has exactly zero to do with the ancient population of Greece. They're aren't even remotely the same culture, or ethnicity, or anything.

2. The only people who care about culture are 10,000 art history majors spread across the world. That extremely patronizing English bird on the Oliver segment has more interest, appreciation, and right to the treasures of Benin than, likely, the entire present day population of Benin, less some other art history student.

The treasures of humanity belong to the humans, not to the proles. Give them cake and the MCU. Something they can handle.

If an avocado toast plague wipes out the entire tier 1 educated population of the West, then please ship all of our pilfered masterpieces to the kid who went to grad school in Nigeria.

Please don't mistake this for racism. It's elitism.

[Slap Shot]

I think we all can agree the loss of the library at Alexandria is one the (if not the) most significant historical losses in history right along with the demolition of the Metropolitan Sports Center.

[Spartanforlife4]

It's not contradictory for two reasons.

1. It's not that culture doesn't matter, it's that the whimsical attitudes of peoples towards what they call their cultures don't matter. The current population of Greece has exactly zero to do with the ancient population of Greece. They're aren't even remotely the same culture, or ethnicity, or anything.

2. The only people who care about culture are 10,000 art history majors spread across the world. That extremely patronizing English bird on the Oliver segment has more interest, appreciation, and right to the treasures of Benin than, likely, the entire present day population of Benin, less some other art history student.

The treasures of humanity belong to the humans, not to the proles. Give them cake and the MCU. Something they can handle.

If an avocado toast plague wipes out the entire tier 1 educated population of the West, then please ship all of our pilfered masterpieces to the kid who went to grad school in Nigeria.

Please don't mistake this for racism. It's elitism.

I don’t think many people are saying not to keep these artifacts around or that they don’t have purpose. However, it’s ridiculous to go all over the world with literal armies and plunder these items, in some cases destroying them in the process, and then turn around and say that they weren’t being taken care of and they can’t have them back.

What’s the time limit on when something is no longer relevant to a culture to be kept by those people? The Benin bronzes were still being used when they were stolen. Those Native American artifacts still looked pretty important to the tribal members who had to see them in the basement. When is it okay to start taking the art out of Florence?

[SJHovey]

For the most part, these artifacts of "humanity" are around, and preserved only because some rich person somewhere has paid to either purchase them or, more likely, steal them. It's not an ideal system, but it's probably the only system that will reliably preserve the largest chunk of these things.

[Kepler]

For the most part, these artifacts of "humanity" are around, and preserved only because some rich person somewhere has paid to either purchase them or, more likely, steal them. It's not an ideal system, but it's probably the only system that will reliably preserve the largest chunk of these things.

Oh good, I agree with Hovey. I need to do some soul searching.

But, unexpectedly, he is correct. The West was the first culture that gave a crap about history and cultural preservation and, for that matter, multi-culturalism, for at least a full two centuries before anybody else caught up. Had these artifacts not been looted they would have gone the way of all their lost brethren. Would you give the Gobelin tapestries to Florida?

Cultural sensitives are vital for dealing with living, breathing human beings. They are an essential part of what separates us from animals and Republicans.

But when it comes to the simple one time only preservation of ancient links to the human past, **** that. One of the paradoxes of history: if you are the most capable of preserving and appreciating you are also, most likely, capable of taking the stuff for your personal edification. Until of course the next Cultured Looter comes along. I for one will welcome our Chinese overlords with their quantum entanglement climate controls.

[Kepler]

Velma, duh.

[Handyman]

I'm with Kepler to the extent that if some bronze age relic can be better preserved here than in the middle east where it came from, we should keep it.

Imagine if we still had the great library at Alexandria. Imagine everything that was lost because people couldn't maintain them. What we have left is as much a product of luck as anything.

If (when) the US collapses in 50-1000 years, I want the library of Congress' collection to be saved. Who does the saving is irrelevant.

Yeah but you are talking about collapse, not outright theft. Not exactly the same thing.

Is it your contention that Germany/Austria should not give back the stuff they stole during WW2...because even they don't say that anymore for the most part. (thanks to groups like the Monuments Men Foundation)

Yes, the Library at Alexandria is the great tragedy of history when it comes to knowledge, but using that to justify plundering and theft is beyond a joke. First of all the myth behind its destruction is BS it didn't die due to being burned, it died because of the purging of the Intellectuals. It didn't burn for good until over 600 years after that and it was barely in use. It lived well into the Common Era. (Wiki) Second, that was destroyed by outside forces not because the Egyptians couldn't take care of it. The Romans and the Muslims destroyed it. (again though the Library fell out of favor a long time before that thanks to Ptolemy VIII even though the scholars studied elsewhere) It doesn't parallel except that in this case Europe = Rome/Muslims aka THE BAD GUYS. They came, they saw, they destroyed and they plundered. There was no risk to destruction or lost antiquities until they showed up just like always.

But again, what makes you think a bunch of snobby British People know how to preserve something better than the people who created it? There is no evidence that they do. It should be up to the culture what is and what is not preserved and how. We aren't just talking about people who havent existed in thousands of years, many of these cultures still exist and they have zero ability to even see their heritage because a bunch of WASPs think they are smarter and more sophisticated than the barbarians. It is the height of WASP Privilege and it didn't die in Europe because we did/are doing the same thing to the Native Tribes here. Bunch of egotistical White People who killed and destroyed and then used that destruction as justification for protecting the artifacts to "keep the culture alive" and pretend it is done in some sort of honor. Oh look at how civilized we are...we are showing off the artifacts of the people we murdered ARENT WE SMART AND ACADEMIC!!1

You know who else did all of this for much the same reason...I referenced the country he controlled earlier in this post. He was going to create great museums to the societies and cultures he destroyed as a means of "remembering" but also displaying his conquests and greatness. I guess I don't see how we are much better. I bet scholars would have studied the "History and Destruction of the Jews" display at the "Grand Museum of the Third Reich" and used the very same justifications to keep all of the plunder too even though some Jews would have still existed outside of Europe. I bet they too would have said "we need to preserve this part of history, we can't lose this valuable insights into a people who no longer exist" just like The British Museum (amongst others) is doing now. Would you buy that argument?

[Handyman]

I hate to be dark about this and I hope we can save it all but frankly having more concern over that than the actual planet seems backwards to me. And at this point that seems to be the case for everyone in the top 1%.

I mean...we can do both.

[ScoobyDoo]

I mean...we can do both.

I mean we can't do either. Humanity is destroying itself.

[Handyman]

I mean we can't do either. Humanity is destroying itself.

You are right, so lets just quit. Jesus man I get you have given up on society but that doesn't mean we still dont try and fight and discuss what needs to be discussed.

[Kepler]

Don't forget "laziness."

[ScoobyDoo]

Sorry, pretty hard for me to get all up in arms about a few splashes of paint with all the other **** going on in the world. My bad.

[Slap Shot]

My Alexandria remark was completely in jest and had nothing to do with the overall arguments being made.

One thought I have though is who here has the knowledge on these matters to insist none of the origin countries in question have the means and wherewithal to preserve any of these items should they be returned? The vast majority were not stolen out of a desire to save them from destruction but rather for personal gain, etc. The claim that now they're being kept because they'll fall into ruin upon return is a flimsy and unsubstantiated claim.