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  • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post

    My guess is these cases, if competently defended, will be defended not on the truth or falsity of the statements but on the damages.

    If no one believes the statements, no matter how outrageous or untruthful, there are no damages here. This case is even more interesting because it's not like these voting machines are a consumer product where the public gets turned off of them due to the statements. There are probably a very limited set of buyers for these machines (state and local election officials?) so they'll have to show that those individuals have decided against buying the product because of Trump's fraud claims. Probably not going to be that easy to do.
    Actual damages may or may not be terribly high, but exemplaries could be off the charts Kemosabe.
    North Dakota
    National Champions: 1959, 1963, 1980, 1982, 1987, 1997, 2000, 2016

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    • Originally posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post

      Actual damages may or may not be terribly high, but exemplaries could be off the charts Kemosabe.
      If it is libel per se (which it could be, since the alleged statements are about ability to perform a profession, even though these are corporate plaintiffs), proof of actual damages is not required, is it? On the other hand, as a general rule, courts do not allow sky high punies when actual damages are minor, even if a jury finds otherwise. Not versed on how that general rule applies to defamation, though.

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      • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post

        My guess is these cases, if competently defended, will be defended not on the truth or falsity of the statements but on the damages.

        If no one believes the statements, no matter how outrageous or untruthful, there are no damages here. This case is even more interesting because it's not like these voting machines are a consumer product where the public gets turned off of them due to the statements. There are probably a very limited set of buyers for these machines (state and local election officials?) so they'll have to show that those individuals have decided against buying the product because of Trump's fraud claims. Probably not going to be that easy to do.
        I am pretty sure they have already said it has happened. The CEO (or some high up officer) hasn't been shy about interviews on the subject. Their name is tarnished in American politics.

        I don't think your strategy will help the defendants that much. There is no jury that won't think dominion has been damaged by what they said. Dominion has been 'linked" to foreign actors trying to overthrow our election. They were slandered on TV and Twitter thousands of times about changing votes. This is not some one off it is months of lies and harassment. It is not some giant leap to assume their reputation took a hit and future money will be lost.
        "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
        -aparch

        "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
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        • Originally posted by Handyman View Post

          I am pretty sure they have already said it has happened. The CEO (or some high up officer) hasn't been shy about interviews on the subject. Their name is tarnished in American politics.

          I don't think your strategy will help the defendants that much. There is no jury that won't think dominion has been damaged by what they said. Dominion has been 'linked" to foreign actors trying to overthrow our election. They were slandered on TV and Twitter thousands of times about changing votes. This is not some one off it is months of lies and harassment. It is not some giant leap to assume their reputation took a hit and future money will be lost.
          If you actually listen to his quotes, or what he claims, it's pretty sketchy in terms of damages.

          First, he always cites the harassment and death threats against Dominion employees. Ok, that may be true, but that actually isn't a claim Dominion has, it's a claim the employees might personally have.

          Next, he talks about spending a few million on security. Ok, that's probably a recoverable claim, but it's a far cry from a billion dollars.

          Everything else is just very vague like "catastrophic hit to our reputation." That sounds good on tv, but does nothing in a courtroom.

          Ultimately these cases will be settled for something, but it isn't even going to be in the same universe as $1.3 billion or whatever silly number they are looking for in these claims.
          That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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          • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post

            If you actually listen to his quotes, or what he claims, it's pretty sketchy in terms of damages.

            First, he always cites the harassment and death threats against Dominion employees. Ok, that may be true, but that actually isn't a claim Dominion has, it's a claim the employees might personally have.

            Next, he talks about spending a few million on security. Ok, that's probably a recoverable claim, but it's a far cry from a billion dollars.

            Everything else is just very vague like "catastrophic hit to our reputation." That sounds good on tv, but does nothing in a courtroom.

            Ultimately these cases will be settled for something, but it isn't even going to be in the same universe as $1.3 billion or whatever silly number they are looking for in these claims.
            What's the price of a machine, and how many states will have to update their voting machines in the next election, and the one after that, and then again, and again, and so on? You can make a claim that their reputation has been damaged to prevent greater future sales.
            "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

            "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

            "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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            • Originally posted by burd View Post

              If it is libel per se (which it could be, since the alleged statements are about ability to perform a profession, even though these are corporate plaintiffs), proof of actual damages is not required, is it? On the other hand, as a general rule, courts do not allow sky high punies when actual damages are minor, even if a jury finds otherwise. Not versed on how that general rule applies to defamation, though.
              Yeah, libel per se presumes damages.

              As for court limitations on exemplaries, it would likely depend on the state they were in. Some states do not permit exemplaries on defamation claims. Some states have ratio caps (i.e. 1:1 ratio with actual/compensatory damages). Some states have soft caps (e.g. there is a 1:1 ratio, but if there is clear and convincing evidence of wrong, then it can go to a 3:1 ratio or a 5:1 ratio (or uncapped)). On Federal claims, I believe there is a presumed 10:1 limit...but I don't practice much with Federal claims (although, did have a sweet 1983 settlement last summer). I presume that Dominion would do the research and file in the right jurisdiction for them to get the best recovery.
              North Dakota
              National Champions: 1959, 1963, 1980, 1982, 1987, 1997, 2000, 2016

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              • Originally posted by Handyman View Post

                I am pretty sure they have already said it has happened. The CEO (or some high up officer) hasn't been shy about interviews on the subject. Their name is tarnished in American politics.

                I don't think your strategy will help the defendants that much. There is no jury that won't think dominion has been damaged by what they said. Dominion has been 'linked" to foreign actors trying to overthrow our election. They were slandered on TV and Twitter thousands of times about changing votes. This is not some one off it is months of lies and harassment. It is not some giant leap to assume their reputation took a hit and future money will be lost.
                Bingo. It will be extremely easy for Dominion to get an expert to put together a calculation (and likely have already done so). I'm sure there are already public officials who have said they won't use Dominion products in their states because of the Big Lie, or in any event, get a few Nazis in power to state they would never use Dominion based on the Big Lie. It's a pretty easy case to get a pretty big number...at least from what I can tell from a 30,000 foot view.
                North Dakota
                National Champions: 1959, 1963, 1980, 1982, 1987, 1997, 2000, 2016

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                • Originally posted by St. Clown View Post

                  What's the price of a machine, and how many states will have to update their voting machines in the next election, and the one after that, and then again, and again, and so on? You can make a claim that their reputation has been damaged to prevent greater future sales.
                  Their damages are going to be based on lost sales. My guess is that they won’t be able to demonstrate much, if any lost sales.
                  That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post

                    Their damages are going to be based on lost sales. My guess is that they won’t be able to demonstrate much, if any lost sales.
                    Sorry, but this is really incorrect. They would likely have the following categories of damages:

                    Actual/Compensatory damages: This includes projected lost sales (or lost revenue). Usually you get an expert in to calculate this amount, and it is as much art as science in some cases. As discussed below, this will be a pretty easy way to reach a pretty high number. State X's governor says they won't use Dominion because of the Big Lie? $$$$$$$. State Y's secretary of state says they will replace Dominion systems with another company? $$$$$$$.

                    Presumed damages: If they can get libel per se, which is likely. This amount can fluctuate wildly depending on the court.

                    Exemplary damages: As discussed below, depending on the state/jurisdiction, there could be certain caps in place, but almost certainly would get at least some multiplier of Actual/Compensatory damages.

                    SJHovey, not sure how many defamation cases you have been involved in, or litigated, but I would be interested in what experience you have with defamation claims and what jurisdictions those occurred in?
                    North Dakota
                    National Champions: 1959, 1963, 1980, 1982, 1987, 1997, 2000, 2016

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                    • Originally posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post

                      Sorry, but this is really incorrect. They would likely have the following categories of damages:

                      Actual/Compensatory damages: This includes projected lost sales (or lost revenue). Usually you get an expert in to calculate this amount, and it is as much art as science in some cases. As discussed below, this will be a pretty easy way to reach a pretty high number. State X's governor says they won't use Dominion because of the Big Lie? $$$$$$$. State Y's secretary of state says they will replace Dominion systems with another company? $$$$$$$.

                      Presumed damages: If they can get libel per se, which is likely. This amount can fluctuate wildly depending on the court.

                      Exemplary damages: As discussed below, depending on the state/jurisdiction, there could be certain caps in place, but almost certainly would get at least some multiplier of Actual/Compensatory damages.

                      SJHovey, not sure how many defamation cases you have been involved in, or litigated, but I would be interested in what experience you have with defamation claims and what jurisdictions those occurred in?
                      Oh what would you know ;^)
                      "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                      -aparch

                      "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                      -INCH

                      Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                      -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

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                        • Originally posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post

                          Sorry, but this is really incorrect. They would likely have the following categories of damages:

                          Actual/Compensatory damages: This includes projected lost sales (or lost revenue). Usually you get an expert in to calculate this amount, and it is as much art as science in some cases. As discussed below, this will be a pretty easy way to reach a pretty high number. State X's governor says they won't use Dominion because of the Big Lie? $$$$$$$. State Y's secretary of state says they will replace Dominion systems with another company? $$$$$$$.

                          Presumed damages: If they can get libel per se, which is likely. This amount can fluctuate wildly depending on the court.

                          Exemplary damages: As discussed below, depending on the state/jurisdiction, there could be certain caps in place, but almost certainly would get at least some multiplier of Actual/Compensatory damages.

                          SJHovey, not sure how many defamation cases you have been involved in, or litigated, but I would be interested in what experience you have with defamation claims and what jurisdictions those occurred in?
                          Lin, dat you?!


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                          • Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post

                            Lin, dat you?!


                            ;-)
                            "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                            -aparch

                            "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                            -INCH

                            Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                            -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

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                            • Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post

                              Lin, dat you?!


                              ;-)
                              Comparing me to a plaintiff's lawyer...while having a discussion about defamation...not good!

                              : - p
                              North Dakota
                              National Champions: 1959, 1963, 1980, 1982, 1987, 1997, 2000, 2016

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                              • The other problem that's going to complicate the damages part of at least one of the cases is this. Smartmatic has sued Fox, but Dominion has also sued, I believe. Doesn't Dominion make the machine and Smartmatic make the software that runs the machine?

                                So Smartmatic is going to have to show that machine makers, like Dominion, aren't buying their software anymore. Well, Dominion can't come in and say that they won't buy the software because of the allegations of fraud made by Fox. Dominion itself is claiming the story is a bunch of hooey.
                                That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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