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  • Originally posted by LynahFan View Post

    Sigh. I am clearly unable to communicate on this topic.

    Last try: Share *everything*, including unknowns, uncertainties, risks, and of course specific things that you need your boss to do for the project to succeed (resources, doors opened, etc), but do not expect your boss to do your job for you. I have seen that situation far too often - if the boss ends up wondering "what am I paying this guy for?" then he won't be asking that question for very long.
    I'm not trying to be difficult or even particularly oppose what you are saying. I think we are feeling different parts of the elephant. Hopefully consensually.
    Cornell University
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    • I really hate project managers. We waste so much time in meetings talking about process and presentations that we spend almost not time looking at data and making conclusions. And they tend not to go out of their way to understand much of anything other than "keep on the timing plan".

      Horrible people.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MichVandal View Post
        I really hate project managers. We waste so much time in meetings talking about process and presentations that we spend almost not time looking at data and making conclusions. And they tend not to go out of their way to understand much of anything other than "keep on the timing plan".

        Horrible people.
        Do you feel they aren't approaching their tasks (coordination of different functions, communication/clarifications of objectives and parameters from leadership to technical staff and of status, risks, and technical considerations the other direction) correctly, or that the tasks themselves don't exist? If they made you a PM at gunpoint, how would you do it?
        Cornell University
        National Champion 1967, 1970
        ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
        Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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        • Kep, have you taken any courses in various PM methodology? I took a Scrum course a few years ago when I was between jobs and found it unbelievably valuable. Now, as a manager and sometimes PM, I use a lot of the ideas from that Agile/Scrum process. I don't do software development so it doesn't perfectly translate, but the real basic concepts of sprints/tasks and whatnot translate to almost anything.
          I gotta little bit of smoke and a whole lotta wine...

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          • Originally posted by Swansong View Post
            Kep, have you taken any courses in various PM methodology? I took a Scrum course a few years ago when I was between jobs and found it unbelievably valuable. Now, as a manager and sometimes PM, I use a lot of the ideas from that Agile/Scrum process. I don't do software development so it doesn't perfectly translate, but the real basic concepts of sprints/tasks and whatnot translate to almost anything.
            Formal training limited to an overview course in Project Management sponsored by the PMI; then I have training in some related tools and tricks like EVM. There are elements of it from my CM background -- managing the CM lifecycle uses concepts that apply to anything from software to a hard hat construction project. And I have done Proposal work and so understand some of the business objectives -- I can write a mean BOE for example. I am very interested in approaches and resources to help me be more effective and not provoke the negative reaction MV voices -- since I come from a technical discipline I understand where he is coming from, and am aware how ubiquitous that impression of Project Management is.

            I just joined the PMI and am reading through PMBoK, and I'm on PM groups on reddit, Discord, LinkedIn, and the PMI to lurk and absorb language and zeitgeist. I'm trying to build a support/resource group which at first I'm unashamedly just going to be a drain on, eating their brains. Anybody here interested in a Project Management thread? I'll start one -- I haven't been ingratiating myself to you folks for the last 20 years for nothing. It was all the Long Game.

            As for Agile, Scrum, and Kanban, I can spell them. I am starting to read up on them, but beyond the common sense precursors that I've stumbled on myself they are naught but words that come up in job reqs so far.


            Last edited by Kepler; 08-25-2021, 09:07 AM.
            Cornell University
            National Champion 1967, 1970
            ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
            Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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            • Originally posted by MichVandal View Post
              I really hate project managers. We waste so much time in meetings talking about process and presentations that we spend almost not time looking at data and making conclusions. And they tend not to go out of their way to understand much of anything other than "keep on the timing plan".

              Horrible people.
              lol maybe you just have bad project managers. I see my whole purpose is to take care of that stuff as much as possible so the people doing real work can focus on it.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Kepler View Post

                I have taken an overview course in Project Management and then I have training in some related stuff like EVM. There are elements of it from my CM background, I am very interested in approaches and resources to help me be more effective and not provoke the negative reaction MV voice -- since I come from a technical background I understand where he is coming from.

                I just joined the PMI and am reading through PMBoK, and I'm on PM groups on reddit, Discord, LinkedIn, and the PMI to lurk and absorb language and zeitgeist. I'm trying to build a support/resource group which at first I'm unashamedly just going to be a drain on eating their brains. Anybody here interested in a Project Management thread? I'll start one -- I haven't been ingratiating myself to you folks for the last 20 years for nothing. It's the Long Game.

                As for Agile, Scrum, and Kanban, I can spell them. I am starting to read up on them, but beyond the common sense precursors that I've stumbled on myself they are naught but words that come up in job reqs so far.
                CM, they're the real enemy.

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                • Originally posted by jerphisch View Post

                  CM, they're the real enemy.
                  Well, that is certainly my ambition.

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                  ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                  Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                  • Originally posted by Kepler View Post

                    Do you feel they aren't approaching their tasks (coordination of different functions, communication/clarifications of objectives and parameters from leadership to technical staff and of status, risks, and technical considerations the other direction) correctly, or that the tasks themselves don't exist? If they made you a PM at gunpoint, how would you do it?
                    If I were asked to be a PM, I would politely decline. Thankfully, in my career, I've never been asked- but then again, probably 20 years ago, they became an official position.

                    I'm not sure how to describe them, but we spend too much time worrying about the message to management vs. actually talking about the project. And because of that mindset in management, our section meetings have transition to us talking about our projects to mostly wasting time updating the one pagers for our managers.

                    Which means we have both PM's and managers to deal with instead of focusing on the actual project.

                    All of the PM's I've encountered are amazing at being passive aggressive to people- for every error state, they manage to blame everyone- thinking that if everyone worked on the issue at the same time, it would solve the problem. But that hardly ever does anything other than make people mad.

                    PM's tend to think they know about the technical details they are "managing" which makes them pretty dangerous when they hardly ever know enough.

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                    • Originally posted by jerphisch View Post

                      lol maybe you just have bad project managers. I see my whole purpose is to take care of that stuff as much as possible so the people doing real work can focus on it.
                      Would be nice if all of our meetings were about the project. Too bad it never happens.

                      Then again, our system is so process oriented, it makes it hard to actually do a project. Just sat in a training session over the project tracking system we have- and I'm glad I never had to deal with that- I honestly could not figure out why that even had to be in place.

                      9 more months to go.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MichVandal View Post

                        If I were asked to be a PM, I would politely decline. Thankfully, in my career, I've never been asked- but then again, probably 20 years ago, they became an official position.

                        I'm not sure how to describe them, but we spend too much time worrying about the message to management vs. actually talking about the project. And because of that mindset in management, our section meetings have transition to us talking about our projects to mostly wasting time updating the one pagers for our managers.

                        Which means we have both PM's and managers to deal with instead of focusing on the actual project.

                        All of the PM's I've encountered are amazing at being passive aggressive to people- for every error state, they manage to blame everyone- thinking that if everyone worked on the issue at the same time, it would solve the problem. But that hardly ever does anything other than make people mad.

                        PM's tend to think they know about the technical details they are "managing" which makes them pretty dangerous when they hardly ever know enough.
                        So what I'm hearing is:

                        1. Not respecting the team's time
                        2. Not recognizing the PM's personal technical ignorance
                        3. Fostering a fault-finding, distrustful environment

                        And what would help would be:

                        1. Ensuring time taken on management results in a commensurate decrease in task time and/or some magically equivalent increase in quality
                        2. Being humble, asking questions, having a technical peer to evaluate whether management objectives and guidance make practical sense
                        3. Being open, suspending judgment, focusing on the task and not on supposed deficiencies in performance

                        Is that fair?

                        I really want to be "one of the good ones."
                        Cornell University
                        National Champion 1967, 1970
                        ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                        Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                        • Originally posted by Kepler View Post

                          So what I'm hearing is:

                          1. Not respecting the team's time
                          2. Not recognizing the PM's personal technical ignorance
                          3. Fostering a fault-finding, distrustful environment

                          And what would help would be:

                          1. Ensuring time taken on management results in a commensurate decrease in task time and/or some magically equivalent increase in quality
                          2. Being humble, asking questions, having a technical peer to evaluate whether management objectives and guidance make practical sense
                          3. Being open, suspending judgment, focusing on the task and not on supposed deficiencies in performance

                          Is that fair?

                          I really want to be "one of the good ones."
                          I would also suggest to know your technical limits. So that the team does not have to spend time explaining to you every single little detail.

                          As for "is that fair" - I suppose it is, but can't really picture a good PM.

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                          • Originally posted by MichVandal View Post

                            I would also suggest to know your technical limits. So that the team does not have to spend time explaining to you every single little detail.

                            As for "is that fair" - I suppose it is, but can't really picture a good PM.
                            I meant is that a fair summary of your concerns, not is the interaction fair. Fairness is what works.

                            So don't just know my limits but do some reading so I'm not wasting their time? Got it. Is it okay / welcome to take subject matter experts aside and ask them what resources they think I would find useful? You know one of the biggest obstacles to learning about what you don't know is you don't even know what you don't know.

                            This is good feedback, thank you.
                            Cornell University
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                            ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                            Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                            • moving to other thread
                              Last edited by Swansong; 08-25-2021, 10:21 AM.
                              I gotta little bit of smoke and a whole lotta wine...

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