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  • Originally posted by Kepler View Post

    We know we are capital equipment. If it pains you that we don't love you for it, cash out. We can't, we have to work. For now.

    UBI is gonna make a lot of tin badge tyrants very unhappy.
    Listen, you figure out how to make things go by paying people not to work, I'll be the first guy in line to congratulate you and pat you on the back. Nobel Prize for you, as far as I'm concerned.

    But, until you do, I can't operate by paying people to not work, at least not beyond what I can offer for the four weeks or so of paid time off given to our employees. If they use their time but become sick at the end of the year, I'll give them the time off. But I can't pay them for it.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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    • I had to go into our benefits system because when I was confirming my vacation time to jump into this conversation, I noticed I had more time than I realized. Turns out when I hit my 20 year anniversary in 2020, I got another week of vacation. No wonder why I had so much time left at the end of 2021. I was planning for lower number. No one told me that.

      Ours is called FTO (flexible time off) and it's also for any use - sick time, mental health days, doctor's appointments as well as vacation. Given my length of time at this company, I now get 6 weeks vacation. I also carry over 4 weeks because in the 22 years I've been here, I've never been able to use them all. I want to keep carrying over the 4 weeks because they could eliminate my job at any time I get that money as part of my severance. In addition to the 6 days, we get four personal holidays. So, I have 34 days to use or lose. This year I'm planning to take them all. I don't want to lose days like I did last year. Pre-pandemic, I was able to burn a lot with hockey trips. Hope that comes back next season!

      I think it's great that my company is generous with time but I feel I can never take a decent vacation without having to do something work related. We just had a team meeting and my manager, the one turning 40, told us she is off the week of 2/28 - her husband is flying her somewhere as a surprise, that she will be back home on March 2 but March 3 is her birthday but she's not logging in that day. Must be nice. Last fall I arranged to take my birthday off. It was on a Friday. I wound up having to go into the office for something at 8:30am that became a fire drill that didn't need to be.

      I need to get started on planning time off.....

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      • Our eldest just secured a paid internship for the summer with Abbot's engineering medical device division. That kid couldn't tie his shoes until he as 4. Haha.

        It's true kids can overcome their parents if they work hard enough. : ^ P

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        • Hospitals never close, so we have one bucket of time off (PTO). Every holiday is a floater. Sick? Vacation? Christmas? Whatevs. Individual contributers earn x hours of PTO every week. I like it, personally. I took so little time off during the early months of the pandemic that I'm constantly pushing 400 hours of available time. It stops accruing at 500, so I just need to be on top of that.


          I do agree that companies that don't roll over vacation time (at least that) are bull****. Then those same companies **** and moan every December that everyone is out. Well, no ****.
          I gotta little bit of smoke and a whole lotta wine...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post

            Listen, you figure out how to make things go by paying people not to work, I'll be the first guy in line to congratulate you and pat you on the back. Nobel Prize for you, as far as I'm concerned.

            But, until you do, I can't operate by paying people to not work, at least not beyond what I can offer for the four weeks or so of paid time off given to our employees. If they use their time but become sick at the end of the year, I'll give them the time off. But I can't pay them for it.
            You CAN separate sick days with vacation days. How is that bad?

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            • Originally posted by MichVandal View Post

              You CAN separate sick days with vacation days. How is that bad?
              Who said it's bad? It's just not as good as combining them.

              Let's say I give you 10 paid sick days each year, and 15 paid vacation days each year.

              Now, let's say that instead of that I just give you 25 paid time off days to use for whatever reason you choose? Isn't that better for everyone involved? It's certainly better for me. I don't need to figure out if your are "sick" or not? All I need to know is whether you are coming to work. I don't care why.

              If the sick days are for use when you are actually sick, isn't my way better for you as well? Let's say you happen to be really healthy this year because you are sitting in your house wearing a mask 24/7. Instead of having only 15 days to take for personal time off or vacation, you can take all 25.

              I really don't get your logic on this. Since we made the change years ago, our employees wouldn't go back to the old way if we let them.
              That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post

                Who said it's bad? It's just not as good as combining them.

                Let's say I give you 10 paid sick days each year, and 15 paid vacation days each year.

                Now, let's say that instead of that I just give you 25 paid time off days to use for whatever reason you choose? Isn't that better for everyone involved? It's certainly better for me. I don't need to figure out if your are "sick" or not? All I need to know is whether you are coming to work. I don't care why.

                If the sick days are for use when you are actually sick, isn't my way better for you as well? Let's say you happen to be really healthy this year because you are sitting in your house wearing a mask 24/7. Instead of having only 15 days to take for personal time off or vacation, you can take all 25.

                I really don't get your logic on this. Since we made the change years ago, our employees wouldn't go back to the old way if we let them.
                At the same time, you suspect that people are taking vacations when they are calling in sick. So you worry if people are taking random days off. You did actually post that.

                The nice thing about separating the vacation from sick days is that I can schedule my vacation to the limit and not worry about getting sick. I'm betting that you have a lot of people taking time off in December, since they have so much left over- given you are forced to conserve days in case someone gets sick in your family.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by MichVandal View Post

                  At the same time, you suspect that people are taking vacations when they are calling in sick. So you worry if people are taking random days off. You did actually post that.

                  The nice thing about separating the vacation from sick days is that I can schedule my vacation to the limit and not worry about getting sick. I'm betting that you have a lot of people taking time off in December, since they have so much left over- given you are forced to conserve days in case someone gets sick in your family.
                  I don't have to worry anymore about whether people are actually sick or not. That's one of the reasons we did away with our old system 20 years ago.

                  Invariably someone would call in sick, use one of their sick days we used to give them, and then two days later another employee would be in squealing, reporting that the "sick" employee was seen at Walmart or the movies or something. Honestly, I got "sick" of dealing with it.

                  Here's the thing. For those places of employment that still separate sick days and vacation, practically speaking the employees are doing it my way, except they are only doing it halfway, and not to their benefit.

                  If an employee gets 10 sick days, and uses them all up by August, what are they going to do when they get sick in November? They're going to use one of their vacation days, if they still have any left and if they want to get paid for the day they're gone. Thus, the employee essentially combines that vacation day into their sick days. Fine. Employers don't care.

                  But employees never got to do it the other way. If they had only used 4 sick days up by December, those six days just sat there. Employees weren't allowed to just combine them with vacation days. They had to use them only when they were sick.

                  My way is better.

                  As for our experience with respect to taking time off, most employees will schedule a week or so sometime in the first 7-8 months of the year, I suppose for family vacations. Then, throughout the year, employees will sprinkle in days here and there, frequently to try to give themselves a three day or four day weekend.

                  The experienced employees usually hang onto a few days for December, in case they get sick. If things are really busy and an employee has a couple of days that I haven't been able to let them have off, I'll let them use them up the next year. It actually has worked really great.

                  The only argument that I've heard used against it is that it encourages sick employees to come to work. I suppose that could happen, but it could also happen when you give an employee a set number of sick days and a set number of vacation days, and they've used all of their sick days and don't want to use their vacation days. In any event, we haven't had a problem with that.
                  That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post


                    The only argument that I've heard used against it is that it encourages sick employees to come to work. I suppose that could happen, but it could also happen when you give an employee a set number of sick days and a set number of vacation days, and they've used all of their sick days and don't want to use their vacation days. In any event, we haven't had a problem with that.
                    So if someone gets COVID, and they stay home for the prescribed time, then they lose vacation time. Maybe you haven't seen is as a problem for a reason.

                    This whole pandemic should have reminded us that when we are sick, stay home. Good thing that there's good incentive to not lose possible vacation time.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post

                      Who said it's bad? It's just not as good as combining them.
                      He said, ownershiply
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                      Originally posted by SanTropez
                      May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                      Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                      I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                      Originally posted by Kepler
                      When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                      He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

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                      • Originally posted by MichVandal View Post

                        So if someone gets COVID, and they stay home for the prescribed time, then they lose vacation time. Maybe you haven't seen is as a problem for a reason.

                        This whole pandemic should have reminded us that when we are sick, stay home. Good thing that there's good incentive to not lose possible vacation time.
                        So you're saying that if your way is that an employee gets 10 paid sick days and 15 paid vacation days, and my way is that an employee gets 25 paid time off days to use however they want, and an employee gets sick with Covid and has to stay home for 10 days, your way is better than mine?

                        Honestly, from time to time I've privately wondered what sort of absurd positions I could get people to take on this board, simply by taking a position which then forces posters to take an adverse position due to who they think I am.
                        That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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                        • Covid aside, I think I prefer blending pools of time off.

                          As a manager, I don't care why you're out. Are you sick? Going to Hawaii? Just want a mental health day? Take the time, amigo. I don't think I've ever rejected a time off request.


                          The only differentiator I want is whether the time is scheduled or not. You don't schedule sick time typically, but there are lots of non-illness reasons for unscheduled time off. Knowing that helps inform me whether an employee is reliable or not, or if they need help, or whatever.

                          Without getting into details, I have a few employees who take a lot of unscheduled time off for health reasons. Being able to report, periodically, on my work group helps me determine whether or not I need to offer help (employee assistance program, HR, employee health... i mean real help I want to offer to another human being that works for me) or not. Or, when promotion time comes up. I won't (can't) hold that up if someone has documented health issues. But I can if someone is kinda lazy and simply knocks off work regularly.

                          Ultimately, I'm at my best when my whole team is functioning at its best. If someone is slipping I want to know why and how I can assist them. I say this for both work-related reasons as well as human-dignity-related reasons.
                          I gotta little bit of smoke and a whole lotta wine...

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                          • My government employer separates sick and vacation time.

                            The benefit is that there's no cap on accrued sick leave. So if you're young and healthy you can keep accruing it and then if you get hit with a major illness, or pregnancy, or whatever, you'll have the sick time saved up to use without dipping into your vacation time.

                            Extra benefit is that your sick leave balance at retirement can be converted into health care premiums, which can cover your insurance till Medicare kicks in if you retire before 65.

                            oh, the other real benefit is that unused vacation time is paid out in full upon leaving state employment. If you had merged PTO, no way that pay out happens.
                            Last edited by unofan; 02-10-2022, 03:13 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by unofan View Post
                              My government employer separates sick and vacation time.

                              The benefit is that there's no cap on accrued sick leave. So if you're young and healthy you can keep accruing it and then if you get hit with a major illness, or pregnancy, or whatever, you'll have the sick time saved up to use without dipping into your vacation time.

                              Extra benefit is that your sick leave balance at retirement can be converted into health care premiums, which can cover your insurance till Medicare kicks in if you retire before 65.

                              oh, the other real benefit is that unused vacation time is paid out in full upon leaving state employment. If you had merged PTO, no way that pay out happens.
                              That's a really nice retention tool.

                              But it's still a gun to your head. There should be no limit on sick leave. You should not "accrue" it, it simply is -- 100% compensation for the duration. A sick person is sick, pay them while they get better. If that gives a business the sad, apply for relief. If that gives a taxpayer the sad, fuck you sociopath.

                              Stop running the country for the benefit of the least empathetic. Those people aren't "fiscally conservative." They're mentally and morally deficient.
                              Last edited by Kepler; 02-10-2022, 03:48 PM.
                              Cornell University
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                              • Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post

                                You're right, I carefully plan my illnesses every year in January.

                                Many employers don't allow us to carry any vacation over. And I can tell you dozens of examples where people have saved their time for vacation and been told to come in to work and no compensated with additional time off. By combining vacation and sick time, the employer is directly implying being sick is equivalent to being on vacation. For whom? Made worse by the fact that Vacation+Sick=PTO means it incentivizes people to come into work sick thereby burning more PTO for their employees.

                                Fuck that. You owe these people nothing.


                                Edit: I was lucky. I learned very early in life that employers don't give a single fuck about you. My parents worked for a very large company in the cities here. My mom was on the top 50 in the company for service time. They had a combined 80 years of service time between them. The company laid both of them off within three months of each other.

                                Loyalty is a leash they use to keep you in place. They are bound by no such concept.
                                So burning all two weeks of your "unscheduled" time off in Jan/Feb because you wanted to go drinking on a Fri/Sat despite knowing that you need to work on Sat/Sun is the employer's fault?

                                That's what I mean when I say that there isn't the slightest hint of work ethic/responsibility here... If an employer was that careless, they would go under. It's being an adult and claiming responsibility for your actions... People can plan in advance (as long as there are time off slots available. Each shift can only have so many people scheduled off in advance). You just need to arrange it on the previous work day.

                                Again, I'm sorry that people can't plan behavior like this in advance.

                                That is what is the major issue with my work deal. It's people who are just irresponsible about life in general.
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