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  • Slap Shot
    replied
    Originally posted by SJHovey View Post

    Yeah, I guess it's not like there is a third option where you take the money, then set it aside as a reserve in case something unexpected happens.
    I'm not understanding this suggestion. How does one "take PTO" over and above one's gross salary?

    If use 8 hours of PTO my gross for that pay period is the exact same as if I had taken 0 hours.

    Leave a comment:


  • SJHovey
    replied
    Originally posted by unofan View Post

    Because unexpected **** happens and it's good to have some reserve? Because soneone may want to take a mental health day in December and not want to worry about being out of leave time?

    Do you not buy insurance because it's just a loan that you may never collect on?

    I mean, Jesus, first the argument is people need to plan ahead and they're stupid for not saving time off for the end of the year. Now it's how dare you plan ahead and you're stupid for doing so?
    Yeah, I guess it's not like there is a third option where you take the money, then set it aside as a reserve in case something unexpected happens.

    Leave a comment:


  • unofan
    replied
    Originally posted by SJHovey View Post

    Let me ask you a question. Do you guys go to bed at night and try to come up with ways to assist your employer to fuck you over? Because it seems like it.

    I get the psychology of building up, and carrying over indefinitely, the 160 hours of PTO. But you do realize you just made an interest free loan to your employer, right?

    Let's say you make $25/hr. If you carry over just one hour of your time, instead of having your employer pay it to you, you just made the employer an interest free loan of $25.91, counting what the employer would have to pay for the additional payroll tax when you get paid.

    Let's say your employer employs just 100 people, and each of those people hold 160 hours of PTO in their PTO bank, and the employees are paid an average of $25/hr. That's $430,600 the employer has received in an interest free loan from its employees.

    For an employer with 500 employees, the loan amount would be $2,153,000. For a company like 3M, with 95,000 employees, it would be a $409 million loan. For Wells Fargo, with 268,000 employees, it would be an interest free loan (to a bank, no less) of $1.154 billion.

    Why do you earn money from your employer, then tell them to just pay you later? As an employer, I thank you for that, but...
    Because unexpected **** happens and it's good to have some reserve? Because soneone may want to take a mental health day in December and not want to worry about being out of leave time?

    Do you not buy insurance because it's just a loan that you may never collect on?

    I mean, Jesus, first the argument is people need to plan ahead and they're stupid for not saving time off for the end of the year. Now it's how dare you plan ahead and you're stupid for doing so?

    Leave a comment:


  • FadeToBlack&Gold
    replied
    I personally never carried over that much PTO. The people who did that were usually India folks working in the US who would bank their time to go home for an entire month every couple of years. My point was that I (and many other people) just made damn sure I squeezed out all the PTO I did have before I resigned, knowing it wouldn't be paid out.

    I took my vacation time regularly and also always made sure to use my floating holiday, which was "use it or lose it" every year.
    Last edited by FadeToBlack&Gold; 02-14-2022, 12:17 PM.

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  • SJHovey
    replied
    Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
    At the old firm we earned PTO based on seniority and we were allowed up to 160 hours of carryover each year, but any surplus was only paid out upon separation if you lived in CA (where state law says they are required to pay it out). So naturally a lot of resignations, including my own, were filed and announced shortly after the employee had returned from a vacation.

    Current firm does the "unlimited" PTO thing, just like the first company I worked for after college. Of course it isn't really unlimited, and the way quarterly bonuses are structured you have, at most, probably one week per quarter - whether it's sick, vacation, personal, etc. - if you hope to hit the billable hours threshold (85%+ billable) required to be eligible for a bonus.
    Let me ask you a question. Do you guys go to bed at night and try to come up with ways to assist your employer to fuck you over? Because it seems like it.

    I get the psychology of building up, and carrying over indefinitely, the 160 hours of PTO. But you do realize you just made an interest free loan to your employer, right?

    Let's say you make $25/hr. If you carry over just one hour of your time, instead of having your employer pay it to you, you just made the employer an interest free loan of $25.91, counting what the employer would have to pay for the additional payroll tax when you get paid.

    Let's say your employer employs just 100 people, and each of those people hold 160 hours of PTO in their PTO bank, and the employees are paid an average of $25/hr. That's $430,600 the employer has received in an interest free loan from its employees.

    For an employer with 500 employees, the loan amount would be $2,153,000. For a company like 3M, with 95,000 employees, it would be a $409 million loan. For Wells Fargo, with 268,000 employees, it would be an interest free loan (to a bank, no less) of $1.154 billion.

    Why do you earn money from your employer, then tell them to just pay you later? As an employer, I thank you for that, but...

    Leave a comment:


  • FadeToBlack&Gold
    replied
    At the old firm we earned PTO based on seniority and we were allowed up to 160 hours of carryover each year, but any surplus was only paid out upon separation if you lived in CA (where state law says they are required to pay it out). So naturally a lot of resignations, including my own, were filed and announced shortly after the employee had returned from a vacation.

    Current firm does the "unlimited" PTO thing, just like the first company I worked for after college. Of course it isn't really unlimited, and the way quarterly bonuses are structured you have, at most, probably one week per quarter - whether it's sick, vacation, personal, etc. - if you hope to hit the billable hours threshold (85%+ billable) required to be eligible for a bonus.

    Leave a comment:


  • wolverineTrumpet
    replied
    When my company got bought out a few years ago we switched to a 0 carryover PTO plan, which is especially terrible during a pandemic. Everyone has to hold on to their time in case they get sick, but then everyone wants to use it at the end of the year because of "use it or lose it". No payout for unused time, no carryover. I despise it and think it's terrible for business. I get not wanting people to bank up months of time, but everywhere I've worked until now at least allowed for 40 hours of carryover.

    Leave a comment:


  • LynahFan
    replied
    Ugh. Carryover rules stink. Ours let’s you accrue 2x your annual allotment, no artificial date cutoffs. Once you hit 2x, you stop accruing, no payout. If you haven’t taken a vacation in 2 years, you deserve to lose it, in my opinion….

    Leave a comment:


  • Deutsche Gopher Fan
    replied
    My company’s plan is quite ****- big combined time off bucket. But we can only carry over 40 hours. And of course banked time isn’t paid out when you leave.

    Leave a comment:


  • Slap Shot
    replied
    fwiw I get 240 hours of PTO to use however way I wish - VL, SL, LOA, etc. We also can earn an additional 80 hours of "CTO" by way of working on a holiday. These hours can also be used however I choose.

    Up to 160 hours of unused PTO gets paid back in February as taxable income. We do not pay for this so this in essence becomes a bonus separate from quarterly and EOY incentive bonuses I can earn.

    The company is not as generous to our employees in the U.S., but I forget the differences as it's been 8 years.

    Leave a comment:


  • SJHovey
    replied
    Originally posted by unofan View Post

    Show me one that does, and I'll show you a bridge I have to sell.

    Tech companies providing "unlimited PTO" always have the unspoken catch of "but not really."

    I believe you said your employees get 25 days of paid PTO per year (can't remember if you just used 25 as an example or not, and I'm too lazy to go back and look). You haven't said there's any carryover except for some flexing around new year's, so I assume that's all they get.

    I currently get 22 days of vacation (4 weeks + 2 floating holidays) plus 9 scheduled holidays and 5 weeks of sick time (this might be more like 3 weeks for me since i've accrued so much already) per year. I get to carry all unused vacation time up to a cap of 2x my annual accrual, so up to 44 days' worth. I can accrue an unlimited amount of sick time. I like my deal more.
    The 25 days were just an example. Our employees start at 21 days. The most senior employee gets 36. I just thought it would be easier to use a single, round number for my example.

    And again, no doubt that you have a good benefits package. As I recall, you were in the public sector and at least up here in Minnesota they generally have pretty good benefit packages. I'm glad you get lots of days off, and that you can carry a lot of them over.

    What I am saying is that there is nothing that prevents an employer using my plan, of a single category of pto, from doing the same thing. My argument has nothing to do with how many days off you get, or how many you can carry over. My entire argument has been that it's silly to divide them up into things like sick time and vacation time, and only allow days in those categories to be used for that specific reason. Group them all together and use them for any reason.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kepler
    replied
    Originally posted by RaceBoarder View Post
    So you're saying I'm being a pawn/follower for knowing that I'm in a job that requires me to show up or use time off and thinking critically when deciding to partake in actions that are likely to result in me not being able to work the following day?
    No.

    Leave a comment:


  • Swansong
    replied
    Originally posted by RENCEB View Post
    I have about 45 days left before retirement. Gave my Company a full quarter notice to give them plenty of time to backfull my position. I agree with Kep to some degree that you owe your Company the same level of loyalty that they would extend to you. However, I feel some loyalty to 100+ people who count on me to make sure that they are paid their correct commissions through the end of the year. That flat out would not happens if I left.
    I've worked in Accounting, Audit and Finance for almost 45 years (just like everyone else, I became an Accountant for the fast cars and women). The jobs weren't always fulfilling, but I made sure that other parts of my life were. Coaching soccer and running the town soccer program. Doing youth ministry for more than 20 years. Volunteering at great places like Greater Boston Food Bank and Cradles to Crayons in the Boston area.
    Looking forward to more volunteer oportunities, travel with my beautiful wife of 40 years, and spending more time with my grandkids. Almost time to drop the mic........
    I hope you have an absolutely amazing retirement!

    Leave a comment:


  • RENCEB
    replied
    I have about 45 days left before retirement. Gave my Company a full quarter notice to give them plenty of time to backfill my position. I agree with Kep to some degree that you owe your Company the same level of loyalty that they would extend to you. However, I feel some loyalty to 100+ people who count on me to make sure that they are paid their correct commissions through the end of the year. That flat out would not happens if I left.
    I've worked in Accounting, Audit and Finance for almost 45 years (just like everyone else, I became an Accountant for the fast cars and women). The jobs weren't always fulfilling, but I made sure that other parts of my life were. Coaching soccer and running the town soccer program. Doing youth ministry for more than 20 years. Volunteering at great places like Greater Boston Food Bank and Cradles to Crayons in the Boston area.
    Looking forward to more volunteer oportunities, travel with my beautiful wife of 40 years, and spending more time with my grandkids. Almost time to drop the mic........
    Last edited by RENCEB; 02-12-2022, 05:16 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • unofan
    replied
    Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
    Nothing prevents a company that has merged sick leave and vacation into PTO from doing those things.
    Show me one that does, and I'll show you a bridge I have to sell.

    Tech companies providing "unlimited PTO" always have the unspoken catch of "but not really."

    I believe you said your employees get 25 days of paid PTO per year (can't remember if you just used 25 as an example or not, and I'm too lazy to go back and look). You haven't said there's any carryover except for some flexing around new year's, so I assume that's all they get.

    I currently get 22 days of vacation (4 weeks + 2 floating holidays) plus 9 scheduled holidays and 5 weeks of sick time (this might be more like 3 weeks for me since i've accrued so much already) per year. I get to carry all unused vacation time up to a cap of 2x my annual accrual, so up to 44 days' worth. I can accrue an unlimited amount of sick time. I like my deal more.
    Last edited by unofan; 02-10-2022, 06:08 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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