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  • unofan
    replied
    Originally posted by Kepler View Post

    That's a really nice retention tool.

    But it's still a gun to your head. There should be no limit on sick leave. You should not "accrue" it, it simply is -- 100% compensation for the duration. A sick person is sick, pay them while they get better. If that gives a business the sad, apply for relief. If that gives a taxpayer the sad, fuck you sociopath.

    Stop running the country for the benefit of the least empathetic. Those people aren't "fiscally conservative." They're mentally and morally deficient.
    The only change I'd make is that you shouldn't start out at 0 for sick leave. But I mean, until you hit something like 400 hours saved up, you get something like 7.5 hours of sick time every 2 weeks (you get less at that point, but you also have the option to convert new sick time accrual to vacation time at a 2:1 ratio at that point, too), so it never really becomes an issue for most people after the first couple of months. I honestly think I have about 6 months' saved up, which frankly at that point you're running into the short-term or even long-term disability arena if you can't come back to work by that point.

    Leave a comment:


  • dxmnkd316
    replied
    Originally posted by RaceBoarder View Post

    Ok, let me clairify:

    We don't have "sick days" in the sense that others do. It's all either PTO (80 hours/2 weeks for everyone. Can be scheduled or unscheduled) or Vacation (varies. 40-120 hours/1-3 weeks. Only scheduled in advance).

    So you guys believe that it's ok for a worker to openly decide that they just don't feel like working for whatever reason and that they don't need to follow through/fullfil their responsibilities?

    Edit: I do wish there was more flexibility when it came to actually getting sick or injured. I'd have a third category for that.
    What the hell are you talking about? If you're sick then yeah, you should be able to be able to decide "I'm sick" and stay home. And your employer should encourage that. It helps keep people healthy and makes sure your workers are healthy and can rest, recover, and return to work sooner.

    We're not talking about deciding to just not work because you're hungover or lazy. This is exactly the same nonsense that the GOP uses to try and pass voter ID laws. People abusing sick time is an insanely scarce problem relative to the population as a whole.

    Leave a comment:


  • RaceBoarder
    replied
    Originally posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    The fact that you’re equating “sick day” with “I went out drinking” instead of “I’m sick” says yes, you are a pawn.
    Ok, let me clairify:

    We don't have "sick days" in the sense that others do. It's all either PTO (80 hours/2 weeks for everyone. Can be scheduled or unscheduled) or Vacation (varies. 40-120 hours/1-3 weeks. Only scheduled in advance).

    So you guys believe that it's ok for a worker to openly decide that they just don't feel like working for whatever reason and that they don't need to follow through/fullfil their responsibilities?

    Edit: I do wish there was more flexibility when it came to actually getting sick or injured. I'd have a third category for that.

    Leave a comment:


  • SJHovey
    replied
    Originally posted by unofan View Post
    My government employer separates sick and vacation time.

    The benefit is that there's no cap on accrued sick leave. So if you're young and healthy you can keep accruing it and then if you get hit with a major illness, or pregnancy, or whatever, you'll have the sick time saved up to use without dipping into your vacation time.

    Extra benefit is that your sick leave balance at retirement can be converted into health care premiums, which can cover your insurance till Medicare kicks in if you retire before 65.

    oh, the other real benefit is that unused vacation time is paid out in full upon leaving state employment. If you had merged PTO, no way that pay out happens.
    Nothing prevents a company that has merged sick leave and vacation into PTO from doing those things. I could let employees accrue an uncapped amount of PTO, let them accrue and carry over no PTO, or anything in between. I can also pay it all out upon termination of employment.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jimjamesak
    replied
    Originally posted by RaceBoarder View Post

    I don't follow you here Kep.

    So you're saying I'm being a pawn/follower for knowing that I'm in a job that requires me to show up or use time off and thinking critically when deciding to partake in actions that are likely to result in me not being able to work the following day?
    The fact that you’re equating “sick day” with “I went out drinking” instead of “I’m sick” says yes, you are a pawn.

    Leave a comment:


  • RaceBoarder
    replied
    Originally posted by Kepler View Post

    This isn't an accident. It's been the message drummed into heads for decades by the people who squeeze workers. Saint Ronnie didn't even start it, he just perfected it. And the boobs loved him for it because everybody knows that one person who is an actual scoundrel. With that person thrust into the Derps' mind the Right was able to destroy all workers' rights.
    I suppose.

    We're starting to see "grunt work" wages increase towards a point to where people will actually WANT to come in and do them. But reaching that is still a long ways off.

    So this is what we have to do to keep the wheels on the bus so to speak. Cause without it "grunt work" doesn't get done and everything collapses.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kepler
    replied
    Originally posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    Yup, the American default is “they must lying and trying to game the system.”
    This isn't an accident. It's been the message drummed into heads for decades by the people who squeeze workers. Saint Ronnie didn't even start it, he just perfected it. And the boobs loved him for it because everybody knows that one person who is an actual scoundrel. With that person thrust into the Derps' mind the Right was able to destroy all workers' rights.

    Leave a comment:


  • RaceBoarder
    replied
    Originally posted by Kepler View Post

    40 years of tireless brainwashing to get a reasonably intelligent person to the point where this is his go to.

    The Kochs do know marketing, I'll give them that.
    I don't follow you here Kep.

    So you're saying I'm being a pawn/follower for knowing that I'm in a job that requires me to show up or use time off and thinking critically when deciding to partake in actions that are likely to result in me not being able to work the following day?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jimjamesak
    replied
    Originally posted by Kepler View Post

    40 years of tireless brainwashing to get a reasonably intelligent person to the point where this is his go to.

    The Kochs do know marketing, I'll give them that.
    Yup, the American default is “they must lying and trying to game the system.”

    Leave a comment:


  • Kepler
    replied
    Originally posted by RaceBoarder View Post

    So burning all two weeks of your "unscheduled" time off in Jan/Feb because you wanted to go drinking on a Fri/Sat despite knowing that you need to work on Sat/Sun is the employer's fault?

    That's what I mean when I say that there isn't the slightest hint of work ethic/responsibility here... If an employer was that careless, they would go under. It's being an adult and claiming responsibility for your actions... People can plan in advance (as long as there are time off slots available. Each shift can only have so many people scheduled off in advance). You just need to arrange it on the previous work day.

    Again, I'm sorry that people can't plan behavior like this in advance.

    That is what is the major issue with my work deal. It's people who are just irresponsible about life in general.
    40 years of tireless brainwashing to get a reasonably intelligent person to the point where this is his go to.

    The Kochs do know marketing, I'll give them that.

    Leave a comment:


  • RaceBoarder
    replied
    Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post

    You're right, I carefully plan my illnesses every year in January.

    Many employers don't allow us to carry any vacation over. And I can tell you dozens of examples where people have saved their time for vacation and been told to come in to work and no compensated with additional time off. By combining vacation and sick time, the employer is directly implying being sick is equivalent to being on vacation. For whom? Made worse by the fact that Vacation+Sick=PTO means it incentivizes people to come into work sick thereby burning more PTO for their employees.

    Fuck that. You owe these people nothing.


    Edit: I was lucky. I learned very early in life that employers don't give a single fuck about you. My parents worked for a very large company in the cities here. My mom was on the top 50 in the company for service time. They had a combined 80 years of service time between them. The company laid both of them off within three months of each other.

    Loyalty is a leash they use to keep you in place. They are bound by no such concept.
    So burning all two weeks of your "unscheduled" time off in Jan/Feb because you wanted to go drinking on a Fri/Sat despite knowing that you need to work on Sat/Sun is the employer's fault?

    That's what I mean when I say that there isn't the slightest hint of work ethic/responsibility here... If an employer was that careless, they would go under. It's being an adult and claiming responsibility for your actions... People can plan in advance (as long as there are time off slots available. Each shift can only have so many people scheduled off in advance). You just need to arrange it on the previous work day.

    Again, I'm sorry that people can't plan behavior like this in advance.

    That is what is the major issue with my work deal. It's people who are just irresponsible about life in general.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kepler
    replied
    Originally posted by unofan View Post
    My government employer separates sick and vacation time.

    The benefit is that there's no cap on accrued sick leave. So if you're young and healthy you can keep accruing it and then if you get hit with a major illness, or pregnancy, or whatever, you'll have the sick time saved up to use without dipping into your vacation time.

    Extra benefit is that your sick leave balance at retirement can be converted into health care premiums, which can cover your insurance till Medicare kicks in if you retire before 65.

    oh, the other real benefit is that unused vacation time is paid out in full upon leaving state employment. If you had merged PTO, no way that pay out happens.
    That's a really nice retention tool.

    But it's still a gun to your head. There should be no limit on sick leave. You should not "accrue" it, it simply is -- 100% compensation for the duration. A sick person is sick, pay them while they get better. If that gives a business the sad, apply for relief. If that gives a taxpayer the sad, fuck you sociopath.

    Stop running the country for the benefit of the least empathetic. Those people aren't "fiscally conservative." They're mentally and morally deficient.
    Last edited by Kepler; 02-10-2022, 03:48 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • unofan
    replied
    My government employer separates sick and vacation time.

    The benefit is that there's no cap on accrued sick leave. So if you're young and healthy you can keep accruing it and then if you get hit with a major illness, or pregnancy, or whatever, you'll have the sick time saved up to use without dipping into your vacation time.

    Extra benefit is that your sick leave balance at retirement can be converted into health care premiums, which can cover your insurance till Medicare kicks in if you retire before 65.

    oh, the other real benefit is that unused vacation time is paid out in full upon leaving state employment. If you had merged PTO, no way that pay out happens.
    Last edited by unofan; 02-10-2022, 03:13 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Swansong
    replied
    Covid aside, I think I prefer blending pools of time off.

    As a manager, I don't care why you're out. Are you sick? Going to Hawaii? Just want a mental health day? Take the time, amigo. I don't think I've ever rejected a time off request.


    The only differentiator I want is whether the time is scheduled or not. You don't schedule sick time typically, but there are lots of non-illness reasons for unscheduled time off. Knowing that helps inform me whether an employee is reliable or not, or if they need help, or whatever.

    Without getting into details, I have a few employees who take a lot of unscheduled time off for health reasons. Being able to report, periodically, on my work group helps me determine whether or not I need to offer help (employee assistance program, HR, employee health... i mean real help I want to offer to another human being that works for me) or not. Or, when promotion time comes up. I won't (can't) hold that up if someone has documented health issues. But I can if someone is kinda lazy and simply knocks off work regularly.

    Ultimately, I'm at my best when my whole team is functioning at its best. If someone is slipping I want to know why and how I can assist them. I say this for both work-related reasons as well as human-dignity-related reasons.

    Leave a comment:


  • SJHovey
    replied
    Originally posted by MichVandal View Post

    So if someone gets COVID, and they stay home for the prescribed time, then they lose vacation time. Maybe you haven't seen is as a problem for a reason.

    This whole pandemic should have reminded us that when we are sick, stay home. Good thing that there's good incentive to not lose possible vacation time.
    So you're saying that if your way is that an employee gets 10 paid sick days and 15 paid vacation days, and my way is that an employee gets 25 paid time off days to use however they want, and an employee gets sick with Covid and has to stay home for 10 days, your way is better than mine?

    Honestly, from time to time I've privately wondered what sort of absurd positions I could get people to take on this board, simply by taking a position which then forces posters to take an adverse position due to who they think I am.

    Leave a comment:

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