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  • Solo's problem is that it is about Han Solo. No one cares about Han's origin story. (I say that as someone who actually read a book written about his origin when I was younger) By making this you are forcing a comparison between whoever plays young Solo and Harrison Ford which is just ridiculous. Star Wars fans are fickle (worse than even comic fans) and reactionary so that is a recipe for disaster. They are also not skewing young so new versions aren't going to get a fair shake since a lot of them remember Ford in the character.

    They could have made this the intro into a very cool pocket of the universe if they had let the character be ANYONE but Han Solo. It still would have been a pretty mediocre film overall but it would have been easier to ignore that because it would have at least been fun. Oh and then you wouldnt need Donald Glover doing his awful Lando impression trying to hook up with a robot. ;^)

    As for Rise...that, like much of the Disney Star Wars stuff is just Kennedy and Disney not having any real direction with the universe and wanting to have way too much control. On at least 3 movies (Rogue One, Solo and Rise) the studio forced major changes, some well into shooting (Solo they fired the directors weeks before it wrapped and had Ron Howard redo half the film!) which made the films feel disjointed. Rogue One you can almost pinpoint the moment! Rise was a jumbled mess because it doesn't match the film right before it (The Last Jedi) and it is obvious JJ had no idea what he wanted to do. In fact it is pretty obvious he didn't really want to make the film. Reminds me of Peter Jackson's "The Hobbit Trilogy". He never wanted to make it but when the director dropped out he made it and it just didn't have the same feel.

    On the other side of the studio interference spectrum is WW84. WB let Patty Jenkins have all the creative control of that film. (which...lets just say isnt their usual game) She was co-writer of the script, she picked the timeframe and almost all of the story beats. When they did early test screenings pretty much everything that the critics have criticized (and fans) were brought up and almost none of them were changed because that was what she wanted them to be. (we know this because she would have let it be known when she was throwing shade at WB for putting it on HBO Max...she wasn't exactly being tactful so she would have said if they interfered) WB trusted her, and didn't want to deal with the fallout of bad press if they were heavy handed with a female director of a female comic film (which would have been FIERCE!) and that lead to the final product. I said this on a film board I frequent...the best thing that happened to Patty Jenkins is that the film ended up where it did. People streaming it won't be as annoyed as people who pay to see it. Netflix proves if you just throw up dreck people will watch it. (seriously 95% of Netflix is unwatchable) WW84 would be considered a disaster if it was in wide release...on HBO Max it is kind of a success because it got subscriptions WAY up and the engagement is high. The Pandemic and WB being desperate to get people to sign up saved her a lot of grief. My guess is Disney won't be so open when she makes Rogue Squadron.
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    • Originally posted by Handyman View Post
      Rogue One you can almost pinpoint the moment!
      Where?

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      • Originally posted by French Rage View Post

        Where?
        opening title sequence.
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        • Originally posted by French Rage View Post

          Where?
          The original movie was supposed to be an all-stealth crime job, going completely undetected until the very end, when the rebel thieves barely escape to delivery the plans. The changes forced into place by Disney was all of the build up to the big battle scenes.
          "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

          "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

          "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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          • Originally posted by St. Clown View Post

            The original movie was supposed to be an all-stealth crime job, going completely undetected until the very end, when the rebel thieves barely escape to delivery the plans. The changes forced into place by Disney was all of the build up to the big battle scenes.
            Yep. The battle was cool dont get me wrong but it didnt match up with the rest of the story.

            But honestly the worst part of that film was the end. I cant roll my eyes enough. And the Vader scene was so unnecessary. Disney doesn't seem to get that most Star Wars fans never cared what happened right before Episode 4. We cared about Vader's fall, or the days of Jedi vs. Sith in the Old Republic...but the Original Trilogy was enough story of that articular saga. We don't need to know Han's origin, we don't need to know how Vader knew the plans were on the ship...we just accepted that an All Powerful Empire would know more than a ragtag group of rebels. The vagueness and the basic story were the right combo. The more you add, the more it all starts to unravel. It is why I hate overinvolved continuity it just ends up contradicting itself sooner or later...
            "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
            -aparch

            "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
            -INCH

            Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
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            • Originally posted by St. Clown View Post

              The original movie was supposed to be an all-stealth crime job, going completely undetected until the very end, when the rebel thieves barely escape to delivery the plans. The changes forced into place by Disney was all of the build up to the big battle scenes.
              I did think it was kind of stupid to have a ship race out of that battle at the last second only to have Leia say they were on a diplomatic mission. It would be like a car riddled with bullets being found by police at the end of a chase and the driver saying, "well, I was on a mission to pick up some Mickey Ds"

              A few other notes:
              1. One of the things I hated the most from 4-6 was looking back and seeing how Luke somehow became this Jedi master without any of the training. It just... happened. The only ones who seemed to be actually trained in the entire series was Anakin and Rey (sort of...)

              2. Force Creep. Every ****ing movie, The Force had new and much more powerful abilities. 9>8>7>3>2>1>6>5>4. I wouldn't have had an issue with this like in 9 where you basically have it 1-v-1. That makes sense! But in 2 you have people throwing Senate boxes like cardboard but 4-6 you have to wait for Vader to struggle to throw a toolbox (meekly) across the screen 3/4 of the way through TESB. Obviously this was directly tied to the SFX budgets and capabilities. I just found it annoying.

              3. (Mando spoilers in white) I noticed that with KLR massacring Luke's students, I have to wonder if Grogu is killed by KLR in a subsequent season. I mean, that story has to go somewhere and they kind of wandered into a dead-end and will have to either address that or write their way out of it.

              4. Hot take: While 1 & 2 are atrocious movies with very few redeeming qualities and lacking any kind of charm, I think the rest are all kind of on par with each other. (At least the last half of 3 was on par.) 8 & 9 seemed kind of plot-holey at times, but honestly, they all had that issue, even 4-6. And every single one of them have issues with Deus Ex Machina. Which leads me to...

              5. I'm noticing something with these movies and how they're received. it seems like people want them to be the same as 4 & 5 but different. All nine of them are the same movie. Exactly the same. Changed names, new SFX, new planets, but they all end with some magical intervention followed by a celebration. "It's just a copy of 4" vs. "This wasn't a Star Wars movie!" le sigh. Ep 3 and on were all enjoyable action movies. It's why I think Mando has such an opportunity. They don't need every episode to be the same, though they usually are very similar. It's ok to move pieces around the board and setup long arcs. The movies are pegged into 2-2.5 hour slots and all desperately try to tell about 8 hours of story before people get bored. I'm not sure why 4 & 5 are viewed as "great" but the others aren't. I think a lot of the greatness comes from the clever plot twists in 5 & 6 where we find out just who's in the Skywalker family.


              Edit: Oh, and I'm absolutely convinced we'll see 10-12 in the next decade.
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              • Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                I'm absolutely convinced we'll see 10-12 in the next decade.
                As long as they make money, they will be made. c.f. MCU.

                My impression was always that Luke was in the swamp with Yoda for a long time. Like maybe "time out of time" Groundhog Day time. I never thought of him as Microwave Jedi, which would have bothered me too.

                I still think 4 stands alone as the best of the SW films by an enormous margin. In my mind it's the only one that was in any way "inspired" (by Campbell's input) and anything other than a space opera. It's also the only one not dripping with greed for monetizing the property. It actually means well, whereas the others all have the sour sweat of the comic convention autograph table.
                Last edited by Kepler; 01-04-2021, 04:12 PM.
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                • Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                  As long as they make money, they will be made. c.f. MCU.

                  My impression was always that Luke was in the swamp with Yoda for a long time. Like maybe "time out of time" Groundhog Day time. I never thought of him as Microwave Jedi, which would have bothered me too.

                  I still think 4 stands alone as the best of the SW films by an enormous margin. In my mind it's the only one that was in any way "inspired" (by Campbell's input) and anything other than a space opera. It's also the only one not dripping with greed for monetizing the property. It actually means well, whereas the others all have the sour sweat of the comic convention autograph table.
                  Yeah, the thought occurred to me that he spent a long time there in his first stint. I just wasn't paying enough attention to the dialogue to figure out how long. The film cuts just made it seem like a month or two, not even close to the 10-15 years it seemed like Anakin and Obi Wan had. I really think they needed to put that Yoda scene in far, far earlier. They spent 18 scenes setting him up to go to Dagobah and another three to get him there out of 50 total. Oof. He probably should have departed for Dagobah at the end of the first movie.

                  I tend to agree with you on 4. It felt the most genuine. I thought 5 was a really good follow-up that stayed mostly true to the original. It felt like an actual sequel and could have easily been stitched together with a 15-minute scene to make it one long movie. 6 was none of that. The story was copy-paste and the Ewoks were just nonsensical. Cut them out and 6 is a perfectly cromulent standalone movie. The whole Ewok thing reminded me of this old article. If you drop a blaster in someone's hand, that number goes to almost infinite. Dumb.

                  One thing I'll say, I thought the last half of 3 was very good. It was tragic and gutting even knowing the whole time what was going to come.

                  Anyways, I have this thought that if someone were to take the core elements of the story across all nine and give it a proper and well thought out arc written from start to finish BEFORE shooting any of the movies, all nine would have been brilliant. Instead, we've got one movie with the rest chasing lighting or money. I don't think even Disney has the balls to hand those car keys over to someone and pledge the $2.5 billion and 15 years to re-do them properly. I'm not sure I want anyone to either.
                  Last edited by dxmnkd316; 01-04-2021, 05:23 PM.
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                  • He isnt a Jedi until he faces Vader again. (Yoda tells him that before he dies) He had the training but he failed the "Cave Test" so he never finished his trials. It wasn't until he faced Vader and chose to spare him that he defeated The Dark Side and became a Jedi.

                    Also remember that there is a lot of time that takes place between the films. It wasn't like Tuesday they blew up the Death Star and Friday they were on Hoth. It is like 3 years later. In that time Luke has practiced the basics of using the force, he just isnt versed in anything that Kenobi didn't help him with first. (he can use the force to move things but he cant focus to be able to see the future or anything) That is the final piece that Yoda teaches him...and it is why Yoda tries to stop him from going to Bespin. He has the tools, but he doesnt know how to use them yet and Vader will be able to crush him.

                    BTW between 5 and 6 it is roughly a year. So in all Luke was training for a while...the difference is he didnt start as a kid (or the stupid term youngling...god Lucas sucks sometimes) so a lot of the things he would have studied and learned as part of his Jedi training (especially educationally) he passed up on which is why it took less time. Even though the book is no longer canon cause...well...Di$ney...there is a fun book that takes place between these films called Shadows of the Empire that is a quick read but very well done.

                    (I am going to go kiss my girlfriend now because I havent felt this dorky since I was in Middle School)
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                    • Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                      I tend to agree with you on 4. It felt the most genuine. I thought 5 was a really good follow-up that stayed mostly true to the original. It felt like an actual sequel and could have easily been stitched together with a 15-minute scene to make it one long movie. 6 was none of that. The story was copy-paste and the Ewoks were just nonsensical. Cut them out and 6 is a perfectly cromulent standalone movie. The whole Ewok thing reminded me of this old article. If you drop a blaster in someone's hand, that number goes to almost infinite. Dumb.
                      Agree completely.

                      Anyways, I have this thought that if someone were to take the core elements of the story across all nine and give it a proper and well thought out arc written from start to finish BEFORE shooting any of the movies, all nine would have been brilliant. Instead, we've got one movie with the rest chasing lighting or money. I don't think even Disney has the balls to hand those car keys over to someone and pledge the $2.5 billion and 15 years to re-do them properly. I'm not sure I want anyone to either.
                      But to what end? For me all of what is great in SW is there in 4 -- both the universe and the characters.

                      This is the mistake Wizard of Oz did not make. Baum wrote 14 books (with 19 more written afterwards). The one Garland movie is the perfect gemstone encapsulation of the universe. It is based on one book. There was no reason to ever make any movie of any of the other books (which are more of the same and/or progressively worse).

                      4 : the first Oz book :: the other SW movies and properties : the other Oz books. With Oz they made the right decision. So let's just glory in 4 and be happy Somewhere Over the Rainbow in a Galaxy Far, Far Away.
                      Last edited by Kepler; 01-05-2021, 09:21 AM.
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                      • Originally posted by Kepler View Post

                        But to what end? For me all of what is great in SW is there in 4 -- both the universe and the characters.

                        This is the mistake Wizard of Oz did not make. Baum wrote 14 books (with 19 more written afterwards). The one Garland movie is the perfect gemstone encapsulation of the universe. It is based on one book. There was no reason to ever make any movie of any of the other books (which are either more of the same and progressively worse).

                        4 : the first book :: all the other SW movies and properties : all the other Oz books. With Oz they made the right decision. So let's just glory in 4 and be happy Somewhere Over the Rainbow in a Galaxy Far, Far Away.
                        The WoO bombed at the box office and it wasn't until a re-release a decade later that if finally became profitable. Obviously SW didn't suffer the same fate and that's likely huge reason why the latter kept going.

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                        • Originally posted by Slap Shot View Post

                          The WoO bombed at the box office and it wasn't until a re-release a decade later that if finally became profitable. Obviously SW didn't suffer the same fate and that's likely huge reason why the latter kept going.
                          So, the moral is: fail commercially.
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                          • Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                            I tend to agree with you on 4. It felt the most genuine. I thought 5 was a really good follow-up that stayed mostly true to the original. It felt like an actual sequel and could have easily been stitched together with a 15-minute scene to make it one long movie. 6 was none of that. The story was copy-paste and the Ewoks were just nonsensical. Cut them out and 6 is a perfectly cromulent standalone movie. The whole Ewok thing reminded me of this old article. If you drop a blaster in someone's hand, that number goes to almost infinite. Dumb.
                            Ep. 5 had a bunch of re-writes done to it, as originally Luke and Leia weren't supposed to be related. It wasn't until George wanted to promote Han a bit that he changed their dynamics. In fact, there was a SW book released before Ep. 5 was written, which Lucas oversaw for story content, called the Eye of Mindor. In that book Luke and Leia become a couple, and are in no way related. Lucas was originally going to use that book as the builder for Empire. As to Jedi, the Ewoks were a late thing as Endor was originally supposed to be a Wookie world, and Han was supposed to die in the rescue from Jabba's palace. Lucas changed those elements because he wanted to sell more toys; that's something that's been well documented.
                            "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                            "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                            "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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                            • Originally posted by St. Clown View Post

                              Ep. 5 had a bunch of re-writes done to it, as originally Luke and Leia weren't supposed to be related. It wasn't until George wanted to promote Han a bit that he changed their dynamics. In fact, there was a SW book released before Ep. 5 was written, which Lucas oversaw for story content, called the Eye of Mindor. In that book Luke and Leia become a couple, and are in no way related. Lucas was originally going to use that book as the builder for Empire. As to Jedi, the Ewoks were a late thing as Endor was originally supposed to be a Wookie world, and Han was supposed to die in the rescue from Jabba's palace. Lucas changed those elements because he wanted to sell more toys; that's something that's been well documented.
                              This fascinates me since the Lore I have heard from the SW fans is George had the entire 9 movies all written out in his head before he shot the first scene of 4, and the rest is just the revelation of Holy Writ.
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                              • Originally posted by Kepler View Post

                                This fascinates me since the Lore I have heard from the SW fans is George had the entire 9 movies all written out in his head before he shot the first scene of 4, and the rest is just the revelation of Holy Writ.
                                He did have the first three movies mapped out when the first movie was released, but a lot of changes took place back when people were willing to actually be editors to and for him and not simply be Yes Men. That's why Eps. 4 and 5 were so much better than the rest. By Eps. 6 (Jedi), Lucas had about 90% control of the brand, which is why the toy concerns became so prominent, and Eps. 1-3 were train wrecks. Eps. 7-9 suffered from not having a complete story outline before production began. I still like Eps. 8 the best of those three; they took some chances with the characters.

                                ETA: There's a graphic novel that was release a few years back called "The Star Wars," which was based upon the original script for Star Wars. It shines a bright light on just how much changed between the original story and what made it to film. Editors are a good thing.
                                "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                                "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                                "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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