US Foreign Policy 3.0: We're The Mets of International Diplomacy

[St. Clown]

I think it was 1980 when I took a course on WWII at the University of North Dakota. A pretty interesting course primarily because there were two professors, one who fought in the Army in Europe, and the second with the Marines in the Pacific. One of the things they liked to do was bring in speakers who had participated in various battles.

Tom Clifford was the President of the University of North Dakota at the time, and had been a tank commander in the Marines in the Pacific. He was pretty seriously wounded at Iwo Jima, and shared with us how it happened.

He said his instructors had always told them to keep the hatch of the turret open, so he did. He was riding in the turret when they came ashore and struck a mine, or something. He told us that at that point he basically became a cork in a champagne bottle. He said it was pretty surreal as he floated above the battle before it occurred to him, "oh, this is going to hurt."

His description of that event will undoubtedly be the last thing I remember from that course.

Every second year, a teacher in my high schools would recount his time in Vietnam. He spent his first 6mos there “in the Bush,” and the last 6 as a supply clerk - the luckiest 6mos of his life, he said. The stories he would tell during his 2-hr presentation were very unreal. He was my accounting teacher, but would give this presentation to the 10th grade history class. Those people in years he did not give that speech watched a video replay. It was both awesome in all the wrong ways, and damming of all things regarding most supply clerks who never spent time on the frontlines.

He mentioned during the presentation that those two hours were the only time he ever talks about his time in Vietnam, and anytime he heard somebody bragging about their greatness as a soldier he’d challenge them regarding their role/assignment. He said that without exception, the braggarts weren’t ever within 15 miles of the action.

The whole thing left a mark with me, and I witnessed it twice, once in 10th grade and another as a senior when he was my accounting teacher and had to take his students there.

[The Sicatoka]

Tom Clifford was the President of the University of North Dakota at the time, and had been a tank commander in the Marines in the Pacific.

I miss that man.

[LynahFan]

Every second year, a teacher in my high schools would recount his time in Vietnam. He spent his first 6mos there “in the Bush,” and the last 6 as a supply clerk - the luckiest 6mos of his life, he said. The stories he would tell during his 2-hr presentation were very unreal. He was my accounting teacher, but would give this presentation to the 10th grade history class. Those people in years he did not give that speech watched a video replay. It was both awesome in all the wrong ways, and damming of all things regarding most supply clerks who never spent time on the frontlines.

He mentioned during the presentation that those two hours were the only time he ever talks about his time in Vietnam, and anytime he heard somebody bragging about their greatness as a soldier he’d challenge them regarding their role/assignment. He said that without exception, the braggarts weren’t ever within 15 miles of the action.

The whole thing left a mark with me, and I witnessed it twice, once in 10th grade and another as a senior when he was my accounting teacher and had to take his students there.

Mine was my high school economics teacher. Quiet, reserved, nicest guy you could ever meet. He never once mentioned his service. It only came out at an extracurricular activity that he chaperoned when we got talking with him that he’d done three tours in Vietnam as a green beret. He declined to share much more with us, but the stories he must have….

[walrus]

My Brother was in Vietnam, it wasn't pretty even stationed in Da Nang. My Mother in Laws husband did 3 tours in Vietnam. He has so many Agent orange medical issues its crazy. He is 86 and tested positive for covid last week as did my mother in law. He shook covid faster than she did, tougher than nails. My neighbors Dad just died, he stormed the beaches of Normandy. I asked how he got off those boats and ran towards bullets, he said he did what he/they had to do. I told him he was crazy to get off a perfectly good boat. he saw many buddies die.

[Handyman]

Every second year, a teacher in my high schools would recount his time in Vietnam. He spent his first 6mos there “in the Bush,” and the last 6 as a supply clerk - the luckiest 6mos of his life, he said. The stories he would tell during his 2-hr presentation were very unreal. He was my accounting teacher, but would give this presentation to the 10th grade history class. Those people in years he did not give that speech watched a video replay. It was both awesome in all the wrong ways, and damming of all things regarding most supply clerks who never spent time on the frontlines.

He mentioned during the presentation that those two hours were the only time he ever talks about his time in Vietnam, and anytime he heard somebody bragging about their greatness as a soldier he’d challenge them regarding their role/assignment. He said that without exception, the braggarts weren’t ever within 15 miles of the action.

The whole thing left a mark with me, and I witnessed it twice, once in 10th grade and another as a senior when he was my accounting teacher and had to take his students there.

Sounds like a dude I had to interview for a project in grad school. The project was for the Historical Society where we had to interview Vietnam Vets about their time in the war. His first night there from the time he got off the plane to the time he got up in the morning was scary as hell. Imagine just mass chaos, explosions way closer than you want to know about at random points in the night as you lay in your bunk. There was no hazing, it was a baptism by fire. He talked for an hour and a half but what stuck with me was the end of his story. He was at Hamburger Hill but got shot at the very beginning before the real engagement and was pulled to safety. He had a a little over a month left in his tour. When he awoke the doctor explained what had happened at that policy was that if you were hurt in your last month you were discharged when you were healthy enough to go. The doctor "forgot" about him for like a week until he hit the threshold and wrote up his discharge. That doctor is enjoying his karmic reward as is the doctor who, when my dad was drafted, found an excuse to mark him unfit. (he was borderline)

[WisconsinWildcard]

I have a copy of an x-ray of a skull (yes they used to xray skulls) with a live grenade stuck inside. This was given to me by a mentor in residency who served in Vietnam who would have a designated time to tell stories of the war with us residents. Pretty crazy stuff that is never really shared and would probably lead to a lot less war if people who made the important decisions knew the real human impact.

[burd]

Mine was my high school economics teacher. Quiet, reserved, nicest guy you could ever meet. He never once mentioned his service. It only came out at an extracurricular activity that he chaperoned when we got talking with him that he’d done three tours in Vietnam as a green beret. He declined to share much more with us, but the stories he must have….

My father was awarded a silver star for his action in the Pacific in WWII. Not only did he not talk about the war, I didn't even know he was awarded that honor until I found it and a narrative in a desk. He also never spoke ill of Japanese people.

[mookie1995]

crazy stuff that is never really shared and would probably lead to a lot less war if people who made the important decisions knew the real human impact.

As long as those “people” aren’t going, they don’t give a ****

[Kepler]

Pretty crazy stuff that is never really shared and would probably lead to a lot less war if people who made the important decisions knew the real human impact.

Plus there's survivorship bias. Most of the people who die in warfare (from war itself, not from starvation or disease) die in excruciating pain. If every 18 year old could experience that pain as a test, nobody would ever join the military and nobody would ever respond if drafted.

But the vast majority of the survivors of war see nothing but boredom punctuated by their buddies getting blown to bits. And while that's sad, it can still be sold to children as stirring; the old lie: Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. Not the begging, humiliating, dehumanizing, bleeding, sh-tting, crying, terror and agony of how people really die in war.

If the war dead could return and speak, any leader who provoked a war for whatever stupid reason would be instantly incinerated by his people.

[Kepler]

Confirmed by Forbes:

The better part of a Russian army battalion—50 or so vehicles and up to a thousand troops—were lost trying to cross a pontoon bridge spanning the Siverskyi Donets River, running west to east between the separatist provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk in eastern Ukraine.

The UA took out the bridge with almost the entire battalion on it. Tanks don't float.

[burd]

Plus there's survivorship bias. Most of the people who die in warfare (from war itself, not from starvation or disease) die in excruciating pain. If every 18 year old could experience that pain as a test, nobody would ever join the military and nobody would ever respond if drafted.

But the vast majority of the survivors of war see nothing but boredom punctuated by their buddies getting blown to bits. And while that's sad, it can still be sold to children as stirring; the old lie: Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. Not the begging, humiliating, dehumanizing, bleeding, sh-tting, crying, terror and agony of how people really die in war.

If the war dead could return and speak, any leader who provoked a war for whatever stupid reason would be instantly incinerated by his people.

Be interested in hearing how you react to Arlington Natn'l Cemetery, Kep, since you live there (and others who don't). My brother finished the last 12 years of his career in the foreign service and now lives in Falls Church. He has always been very liberal and pacifist, but he finds something patriotically stirring about Arlington. When I visited there, I just felt sad, repulsed and angry.

[Kepler]

Be interested in hearing how you react to Arlington Natn'l Cemetery, Kep, since you live there (and others who don't). My brother finished the last 12 years of his career in the foreign service and now lives in Falls Church. He has always been very liberal and pacifist, but he finds something patriotically stirring about Arlington. When I visited there, I just felt sad, repulsed and angry.

Arlington infuriates me.

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Beijing is not happy with Vlad the Derailer.

[RaceBoarder]

Beijing is not happy with Vlad the Derailer.

This is a perfect case of "The enemy of your enemy is your friend".

China sees the world as "unstable" and that is bad for business for them.

[dxmnkd316]

This is a perfect case of "The enemy of your enemy is your friend".

China sees the world as "unstable" and that is bad for business for them.

Exactly. They should be natural adversaries, at least in a vacuum. Trying to wield the same power. They occupy the same continent, both were at one point considered nuclear superpowers, large trade and manufacturing bases. Without the US, those two would be fighting over the same bone.

And your point about stability is well-taken too. I've often said the Chinese gov't will do whatever the spreadsheets tell them to do. Russia ****ing up Europe while China ****s up the rest (who the **** shuts down entire $10T+ economies in search of COVID-zero?) It's got got to be a little infuriating when you've made a ****ty situation worse yourself. You're going to be ****ed at whomever is most convenient that's not yourself.