US Foreign Policy 3.0: We're The Mets of International Diplomacy

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Enough already. Libya, Syria, Iraq, Yemen. "Everybody out of the pool."

Anti-American power vacuums for Russia and China to fill.

[Kepler]

Anti-American power vacuums for Russia and China to fill.

Yes, I'm sure they'll do fine there and won't be completely consumed by the inevitable backlash against the new foreign presence.

If you're worried about that the single best thing we can do is leave them to Russia and China. The moment they set foot inside their borders they will become virulently anti-Russian and anti-Chinese.

The only way not to be the Harkonnen is to not be the Harkonnen.

[Handyman]

Kepler is right. Empire Building leads to hate and conflict. When China and Russia take control they will be hated as much in the the region as we were. Probably worse in some cases...

[BassAle]

China is going to be an economic and political lifeline for the Taliban. Forget opium poppies, China is going to setup shop to extract minerals and as long as the Taliban can provide them with stability everyone will be happy. The Taliban will get money and "legitimacy" by working with a superpower. China will lock up an enormous supply of mineral wealth. Ghazni province showed the potential for lithium deposits that could rival Bolivia, which currently has the world’s largest known lithium reserves.

[dxmnkd316]

China is going to be an economic and political lifeline for the Taliban. Forget opium poppies, China is going to setup shop to extract minerals and as long as the Taliban can provide them with stability everyone will be happy. The Taliban will get money and "legitimacy" by working with a superpower. China will lock up an enormous supply of mineral wealth. Ghazni province showed the potential for lithium deposits that could rival Bolivia, which currently has the world’s largest known lithium reserves.

This is where I'm leaning. CHina is a technocratic machine. They'll do whatever it takes and don't give a **** about human rights and the stuff western democracies at least pretend to care about.

This is a match made in heaven.

[ScoobyDoo]

China is going to be an economic and political lifeline for the Taliban. Forget opium poppies, China is going to setup shop to extract minerals and as long as the Taliban can provide them with stability everyone will be happy. The Taliban will get money and "legitimacy" by working with a superpower. China will lock up an enormous supply of mineral wealth. Ghazni province showed the potential for lithium deposits that could rival Bolivia, which currently has the world’s largest known lithium reserves.

This makes me sad.

[Handyman]

This is where I'm leaning. CHina is a technocratic machine. They'll do whatever it takes and don't give a **** about human rights and the stuff western democracies at least pretend to care about.

This is a match made in heaven.

Until it isnt. Something will mess it up that country is just a sinkhole. Sooner or later China will implode there too.

[aparch]

Can someone who is slightly older than myself give me a quick summary of the Afghan mujahideen that met with Reagan in the White House in 1983... and explain to me why it was good for the US to get involved in backing the Afghani Freedom Fighters who turned into the Taliban?

What if we had just let the Soviet Union over exert itself quicker in the region?

Thanks, I'll hang up and listen.

[ScoobyDoo]

Can someone who is slightly older than myself give me a quick summary of the Afghan mujahideen that met with Reagan in the White House in 1983... and explain to me why it was good for the US to get involved in backing the Afghani Freedom Fighters who turned into the Taliban?

What if we had just let the Soviet Union over exert itself quicker in the region?

Thanks, I'll hang up and listen.

This is typically how things always work out for America post World War II. We should have hung up are warmongering while we were ahead.

[dxmnkd316]

Until it isnt. Something will mess it up that country is just a sinkhole. Sooner or later China will implode there too.

Well obviously, that's true for literally everything. :-P

[Handyman]

Well obviously, that's true for literally everything. :-P

Yeah but there especially. Some places just need to be avoided. Two of those were countries we chose to fight at the same time. (Iraq and Afghanistan)

aparch,

The Mujhadeen were fighting for "freedom" so the idea was America would look like the good guys helping fight back against the Communist Oppressors. Ronald Regan likened the Mujhadeen to The Founding Fathers and had them at the White House. They figured if the Mujhadeen won they would be indebted to us giving us a strategic ally in the area. Much like everything Reagan did though they never thought beyond step one.

IIRC what turned Bin Laden was that America had no intentions of leaving the region.

(I have barely read up on this and not in years so I may be completely wrong)

[dxmnkd316]

There have been some historians posting about how the history of this is filled with misconceptions. I need to track those down as well.

[Swansong]

Yeah but there especially. Some places just need to be avoided. Two of those were countries we chose to fight at the same time. (Iraq and Afghanistan)

aparch,

The Mujhadeen were fighting for "freedom" so the idea was America would look like the good guys helping fight back against the Communist Oppressors. Ronald Regan likened the Mujhadeen to The Founding Fathers and had them at the White House. They figured if the Mujhadeen won they would be indebted to us giving us a strategic ally in the area. Much like everything Reagan did though they never thought beyond step one.

IIRC what turned Bin Laden was that America had no intentions of leaving the region.

(I have barely read up on this and not in years so I may be completely wrong)

To add, the Mujahideen splintered into factions after the Soviets left. There was much infighting and Mullah Omar pulled many together into what became the Taliban. Other splinter groups formed the Northern Alliance and the war raged on, this time internally. Much of the Taliban ended up being of foreign origin - many saw it the same as many saw ISIS: a new caliphate.

It's easy and lazy to say the US Government armed and trained the Taliban but it isn't entirely incorrect. We trained a lot of people, and some of them became our enemies.



On the very bright side, the new weapons the Taliban has now acquired from the miserable failure of the Afghani government's collapse will be pretty much utterly useless within a few months without constant maintenance. I only hope that the US didn't leave them anything that the Russians or Chinese might find valuable.

[BassAle]

IIRC what turned Bin Laden was that America had no intentions of leaving the region.

Right -- I always thought what turned Bin Laden against the US was that the US remained in Saudi Arabia after the first Gulf War, and the fact that the Saudi royal family aligned themselves with the United States rather than Bin Laden during the first Gulf War -- After Iraq invaded Kuwait, Bin Laden offered to defend Saudi Arabia with his "Arab legion". The royal family decided the US was a better bet.

After the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, he went home to Saudi Arabia. Then went to Sudan, and was later expelled so he returned to Afghanistan where the Taliban let him operate freely. This was 1996, and it was when he issued his “Declaration of War Against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places”.

[Swansong]

Further thoughts.


The fact that the feckless and incompetent and corrupt Afghani government lasted less than a week after we began evacuating US citizens and Afghanis that helped us tells me that we should have left years ago. 20 years, $2+ trillion and thousands of American lives (not to mention the zillions of Afghani lives) is enough.


I heard a great analogy for this failure. "We didn't spend 20 years there. We spent 1 year. 20 times."