The "I Can't Believe There's No Abortion Thread" Part Deux: Electric Boogaloo

[leswp1]

Did you see the walkout by the incoming med school class at U of Michigan? Michigan had a well known pro life hack doctor as the keynote speaker for the incoming med students. They walked out and some old white men in the audience joined.

No I didn't. Good for them.

I have seen multiple Med schools are scrambling because they can no longer have rotations in the Orange States- placements in those States would result in inability to have appropriate training, put students at risk for being unprepared to Practice d/t lack of experience, being unable to do what is required by gold standard protocols.

It is unfortunate that AMA, ACOG and some of the other organizations are not holding their members accountable. There is a female OBG who had a bad pregnancy outcome who has been interviewed on a number of programs as an expert. To anyone with experience in the field, it is easy to see she has unfinished business, is projecting her issues and is unable to consider her patients' needs outside of the lens of her personal experience. Every time I hear her I lose my mind. She has no business providing care for women who need an impartial Provider.

[Swansong]

---Excerpt from Texas self-defense law: " ... the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary ..."

Reliable and substantial are (I agree) vague, as is reasonably. Irreversible seems finite, but how about immediately? One second, seven seconds, thirty?

That's how laws are written and why we have courts to interpret what was written.---

What is the definition of reasonable? Irreversible, etc? Any time a Provider makes a decision it would open them to needing to defend it legally. Consider the amount of time and financial resources this potentially could take to run thru the courts. There is a reason you need to pass Boards to practice medicine, be a nurse, do anything medical. As we have already seen from the way some of these laws have been written, lay people do not do due diligence but arbitrarily make stuff up. They are not based in science or known medical knowledge. They make assumptions that are scientifically/medically incorrect. This means there will also be a need to address the invalid assumptions when defending against lawsuits

Now, add to that the fact that the prosecutorial side will absolutely pound providers on this. They will come with the fury of hellfire. "Was it reasonable? What about this? What about that? We have a collection of doctors ready to testify that nothing was imminent." If the state was operating in remotely good faith, this would be a pain in the ***. But they aren't. This is about cruelty.


And yet, good little christofascist cheerleaders continue to gas light.

[leswp1]

Those Catholics, they want a woman to die because of an ectopic pregnancy or cancerous uterus. Right?

You keep posting things regarding exceptions with the assumption that a reasonable person will know the correct decision. You can continue to do this all day but not everyone is reasonable or has the same definition of reasonable. With no objective guidelines it cannot be valid.

In my little anecdotal world- Had a patient in extremis consult her priest. She had 2 consults saying the fetus was not viable, she was at risk, might bleed out, and even if she made it she would end up losing fertility. She was very religious. Her priest told her to pray and trust the will of God. It was her burden to bear, it would be a sin to go against the will of God. He was adamant. Thankfully the family called in a different priest who urged her to move forward with what was advised. She spent years dealing with the guilt of going against her Parish Priest. This dude was a nightmare- he had a thing for women being sinners.

In another Parish close by we currently have a Priest who exhorted his parishioners to vote for Trump because Biden would advocate killing babies, preaches that all abortion is wrong and there should never be an exception because God would not abandon the woman.

I could type all day regarding the lack of acceptance of reasonable. The people that use that argument usually have little or no experience with those who are faced find themselves in need of making the decision. This ain't simple and no matter how many times you try to make it simple it won't change

Take home- if you want to deal with abortion then prevent the need. You cannot argue about whether it is OK if there is no pregnancy to begin with.
Sorry- I had to quote to make the point

[aparch]

Like I said. It will be illegal to get an abortion by crossing state lines shortly. It's only a matter of time.

They can pry the interstate commerce clause from my cold, dead hands.

[Swansong]

You keep posting things regarding exceptions with the assumption that a reasonable person will know the correct decision. You can continue to do this all day but not everyone is reasonable or has the same definition of reasonable. With no objective guidelines it cannot be valid.

In my little anecdotal world- Had a patient in extremis consult her priest. She had 2 consults saying the fetus was not viable, she was at risk, might bleed out, and even if she made it she would end up losing fertility. She was very religious. Her priest told her to pray and trust the will of God. It was her burden to bear, it would be a sin to go against the will of God. He was adamant. Thankfully the family called in a different priest who urged her to move forward with what was advised. She spent years dealing with the guilt of going against her Parish Priest. This dude was a nightmare- he had a thing for women being sinners.

In another Parish close by we currently have a Priest who exhorted his parishioners to vote for Trump because Biden would advocate killing babies, preaches that all abortion is wrong and there should never be an exception because God would not abandon the woman.

I could type all day regarding the lack of acceptance of reasonable. The people that use that argument usually have little or no experience with those who are faced find themselves in need of making the decision. This ain't simple and no matter how many times you try to make it simple it won't change

Take home- if you want to deal with abortion then prevent the need. You cannot argue about whether it is OK if there is no pregnancy to begin with.
Sorry- I had to quote to make the point

I hate to distill your years of experience and training into a vulgar line, but honestly, **** your dumb god and **** you for trying to enforce your dumb god's commandments on other people. I don't care what you're god thinks, or what you think about what he thinks.





*not you Les. I mean the religious nuts and the "totally reasonable, just asking questions" shills.

[The Sicatoka]

You can continue to do this all day but not everyone is reasonable or has the same definition of reasonable. With no objective guidelines it cannot be valid.

You're right. And there's no perfect objective standard that can be written in a matter like this. Heck, "15 weeks" is a guess because we don't know how quickly sperm met egg (can be six days per Planned Parenthood's site). We end up deferring to judgement of those we've granted with greater authority and responsibility (doctors, legislators, judges).

As my concealed carry instructor harps time and again: Use reasonable judgement if you have to defend yourself, but don't trust your life to a reasonable jury either.

[leswp1]

---It moved to Moorhead, MN ... three miles. The facility in Sioux Falls, SD, closed also. Another border town with MN. ---
Another thing that sounds simple but isn't. Some insurances do not cover things across the State line. We had folks who lived in NH and MA. We had issues with insurance not covering across the border. It was a PIA because if the Provider had 2 different places of Practice they would show as being covered but not that they weren't in the wrong State.
There are some insurances that allow coverage in a diff State if there is no availability locally but now there is confusion of if this is allowed in banning States

[leswp1]

You're right. And there's no perfect objective standard that can be written in a matter like this. Heck, "15 weeks" is a guess because we don't know how quickly sperm met egg (can be six days per Planned Parenthood's site). We end up deferring to judgement of those we've granted with greater authority and responsibility (doctors, legislators, judges).

As my concealed carry instructor harps time and again: Use reasonable judgement if you have to defend yourself, but don't trust your life to a reasonable jury either.

Thank you. I wish there was an ability to trust reasonableness.


Legislators and Judges have no business getting in this. Unless they have training they are clueless. These are the people who are causing this idiocy. Their 'greater authority' has put patients and medical folk in legal, moral and physical jeopardy. Unfortunately many of those who are using this as an issue are ignorant but it plays well and they get traction.

Your comment re 15 weeks and how quickly sperm and egg met highlights a difficult point in many of the laws. Both of those are arbitrary measures and assume if the egg is fertilized a viable pregnancy will result. Assumptions are bad and using any of these is flawed.

Some interesting facts-

-Most common calculation regarding weeks is by using last menstrual period and counting forward assuming a 28 d cycle. Ovulation occurs 14 days before menses. If the woman has a longer or shorter cycle calculation of weeks can be way off. Saying a woman can't do anything past 6 wks could mean some women weren't even pregnant yet.

-Up to 25% of women ovulate 2 times a month. Again an issue if you are assuming ovulation occurred at a specific time in cycle

-Eggs on avg have a window of approx 48 hrs but can last a bit longer (usually not) they can be fertilized. Sperm can last approx 5-7 days before fertilization. This is why Vatican Roulette fails often. For those who believe life begins at conception there is no way to calculate that unless you have IVF.

-The fertilized egg can take as long as 7-8 days after fertilization occurs before getting into the uterus and having a blood supply.

-up to 25% of fertilized eggs will result in spontaneous miscarriage before 6 weeks no matter how much the woman is doing to make things successful.

-When I was in Grad school (1988) Life was considered to be present with quickening (Catholic definition, most other mainstream belief systems), Some Jewish sects and other belief systems believed life was with first breath. There was no mainstream belief that ascribed to the life begins at conception. This is a fairly new construct.

- While there is no absolute, most people in this country believe that 'life' is somewhere around 8-12 weeks of gestation. The majority of people do not believe in life at conception.

-There is no medical definition I am aware of regarding when life begins. In medicine we use 'viability', when a fetus would be able to survive outside the womb. While this has changed to be earlier than it was, it comes with multiple potential difficulties. Extremely premature infants have many, many issues that often preclude them having a 'normal' outcome and may result in quality of life being poor and needing lifetime medical support

::climbs off soap box::

[unofan]

. Heck, "15 weeks" is a guess because we don't know how quickly sperm met egg (can be six days per Planned Parenthood's site).

Uh, # of weeks is objectively measured based on the woman's last period. That's why 6 week bans are so insidious. The average Rube like yourself thinks it means six weeks of actual pregnancy, when in reality it means about 2 because it counts those 3-4 weeks between the last period and the missed one.

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Oh are we citing data from the evil planned parenthood org?

Uno is right. Six weeks is very difficult and it goes by last period.

this is why laws should not be written without broad medical input. Like how that jackoff in Ohio keeps trying to say ectopic pregnancies should be reimplanted when every damn MD tells you that’s not medically feasible

[The Sicatoka]

Legislators and Judges have no business getting in this. Unless they have training they are clueless. These are the people who are causing this idiocy.

Can I keep them out of engineering also? Please?

[The Sicatoka]

Oh are we citing data from the evil planned parenthood org?

I consider the data, not the source.

[leswp1]

I hate to distill your years of experience and training into a vulgar line, but honestly, **** your dumb god and **** you for trying to enforce your dumb god's commandments on other people. I don't care what you're god thinks, or what you think about what he thinks.

*not you Les. I mean the religious nuts and the "totally reasonable, just asking questions" shills.

Yup. Sadly those people are not really espousing the religion they think they are promoting or practicing.

The totally reasonable, just asking questions people I have more patience for. It is completely possible to be so insulated that unawareness is real. When I was in my OB rotation I had a classmate who was a diploma nurse going back for her RN, BSN. She had 5 kids. She told us she had grown up in Lowell- parochial school, Catholic nursing school, worked in a Catholic hospital. Never knew birth control existed- it was never discussed, ever- not by Docs, not in her social circle. Hospitals didn't do BTLs or vas procedures. She was completely unaware.

After her 5th kid she was sobbing and the nurse who took care of her said something about how pregnancy was preventable- she was shocked. This woman was smart. Very smart. She just had no exposure. I never forgot that story.

If you have no exposure or if those around you all believe what you were brought up to believe no one thinks to question. It isn't a choice of ignorance but a complete lack of awareness. You have to know enough to question.

[leswp1]

Uh, # of weeks is objectively measured based on the woman's last period. That's why 6 week bans are so insidious. The average Rube like yourself thinks it means six weeks of actual pregnancy, when in reality it means about 2 because it counts those 3-4 weeks between the last period and the missed one.

Most people are completely unaware of what the weeks mean. And weeks is also based on a 28 day cycle. Using dates could be off by a lot of weeks. It could be 2wks, 4wks or not pregnant until 2 days ago

[dxmnkd316]

Enforcement of the Fugitive Slave Act gave the Abolitionist Movement rocket fuel and led to the planks in the Lincoln platform that caused the South to go traitor.

My advice to the Bible Thumpers is: try it. You just try to push your hidebound Neolithic bullsh-t on the free states. You will face a backlash that will make you long for Reconstruction.

Yeah, that point I have to imagine is a hard red line in the sand for the free states. California and New York won't have it. And thus goes the country's economy.