117th Congress: DEMS IN DISARRAY!!!111!!

[ScoobyDoo]

And by interesting, you mean completely expected and baked into the pie already?
What sucks about it is that more women aren’t turned off faster to the horrible double standard. White women continue voting in droves for people like Trump, and not just Southern ones.

I can't figure it. It doesn't make sense to me. The ERA Movement was 50 years ago. Yet, they're still doing what their husbands would want them to do. I have a sister like that. I don't get it.

[Handyman]

Yeah, I think my point wasn’t that what Franken did compared to Cuomo was worse, since at this point it clearly wasn’t, just that we all agreed Cuomo needed to go once the investigation was completed. And, I figured the same would have been said on here of Franken if the Senate investigation had been completed. It appears that isn’t the case, but shockingly, I have been wrong before. I think of all the accusers, Tweeden’s account is the least believable, depending on a lot of stories I’ve read on the subject, in publications like Slate, the New Yorker, and Mother Jones. The picture is unacceptable, but he wasn’t actually touching her breasts, which clears the low bar people like Cuomo and Trump have set. Now, I’ll admit I wanted Cuomo gone before the investigation was complete, but I recognize I’m on my own island when it comes immediately believing accusers of sexual assault. I don’t have to be held to the court of law standard,
or even that of a completed Senate Ethics Investigation to draw my conclusions. I also don’t think that means I arrived at my conclusions via “falling for Fox News”, which I’ve literally never watched. If their reporting influences the publications I read, we’re more ****ed than I thought.
I think Gillibrand recognized she ****ed up when it came to Franken, by asking for the Cuomo investigation to play out first, rather than immediately calling for his resignation. It was the prudent move, and it worked out.
I appreciate your last paragraph, and I agree. I also agree with Kep’s analysis of how Franken can continue being an effective power player for the Democratic Party. He’s an excellent politician.

It isnt about believing the accusers...I do as well. It is about recognizing that not all accusations are the same. Leave politics out of it because I think you believe that is clouding the issue for most of us. (it isnt around here most said he should allow an investigation or step down) Both Louie C.K. and Aziz Ansari were #MeToo'ed for their behavior. One of them was a creep who would whip his dick out and jerk off around people because he is a sad loser. The other went on a date with a fan, and even by her own account seemed to constantly be checking in to make sure things were fine and it wasn't until after the fact she told him she was uncomfortable to which he apologized. He got photoed with a #MeToo pin and she went public and he was burned to the ground for a bit. (I saw him speak about it he is still shaken up over it)

Now I believe the female comics Louie harassed and I believe the woman who went out with Aziz. I don't think what they both did is the same. Louie deserved everything he got. Personally I think he is more of a pathetic loser than he is Harvey Weinstein but he is a powerful name in the comic community so female comics absolutely would feel they need to accept his behavior. That makes him a predator. Aziz didn't deserve for Jezebel to try and destroy his career. Even if I believe every word of her account, he never forced her to do anything, never pressured her...they hooked up and she ended up not enjoying the date. (note: I know that is often the excuse used by rapists, but these are her words not his he thought they had a great time together) If that makes him a predator then I would say every man who has ever gone on a date is a predator. We have to remember there is degrees of difference.

If the Senate had done an Ethics Committee investigation and said he should be removed I doubt many would have defended Franken. People were pretty split at the time. It isn't about who he is, it is about what he might have done and when. Cuomo is Governor and is harassing staff. That is wrong on multiple levels and he can't use the "old man" excuse like say Biden can. Franken was not in office at the time and held no real sway over any of the people. Plus, what he did now would be considered harassment but then he would have just been seen as kind of a skeeve but on par with most comedians. Removal from office, especially in light of the things we know have been going on in Congress since he left, was too big a penalty for what he was accused of based on the scant evidence.

[Handyman]

I can't figure it. It doesn't make sense to me. The ERA Movement was 50 years ago. Yet, they're still doing what their husbands would want them to do. I have a sister like that. I don't get it.

Many of them are raised to believe that is how they are supposed to be treated. Religion doesn't help...

[Kepler]

I can't figure it. It doesn't make sense to me. The ERA Movement was 50 years ago. Yet, they're still doing what their husbands would want them to do. I have a sister like that. I don't get it.

For most of them it's because they were raised in a misogynistic cult.

[psych]

It isnt about believing the accusers...I do as well. It is about recognizing that not all accusations are the same. Leave politics out of it because I think you believe that is clouding the issue for most of us. (it isnt around here most said he should allow an investigation or step down) Both Louie C.K. and Aziz Ansari were #MeToo'ed for their behavior. One of them was a creep who would whip his dick out and jerk off around people because he is a sad loser. The other went on a date with a fan, and even by her own account seemed to constantly be checking in to make sure things were fine and it wasn't until after the fact she told him she was uncomfortable to which he apologized. He got photoed with a #MeToo pin and she went public and he was burned to the ground for a bit. (I saw him speak about it he is still shaken up over it)

Now I believe the female comics Louie harassed and I believe the woman who went out with Aziz. I don't think what they both did is the same. Louie deserved everything he got. Personally I think he is more of a pathetic loser than he is Harvey Weinstein but he is a powerful name in the comic community so female comics absolutely would feel they need to accept his behavior. That makes him a predator. Aziz didn't deserve for Jezebel to try and destroy his career. Even if I believe every word of her account, he never forced her to do anything, never pressured her...they hooked up and she ended up not enjoying the date. (note: I know that is often the excuse used by rapists, but these are her words not his he thought they had a great time together) If that makes him a predator then I would say every man who has ever gone on a date is a predator. We have to remember there is degrees of difference.

If the Senate had done an Ethics Committee investigation and said he should be removed I doubt many would have defended Franken. People were pretty split at the time. It isn't about who he is, it is about what he might have done and when. Cuomo is Governor and is harassing staff. That is wrong on multiple levels and he can't use the "old man" excuse like say Biden can. Franken was not in office at the time and held no real sway over any of the people. Plus, what he did now would be considered harassment but then he would have just been seen as kind of a skeeve but on par with most comedians. Removal from office, especially in light of the things we know have been going on in Congress since he left, was too big a penalty for what he was accused of based on the scant evidence.

I mean I completely understand the anger over Gillibrand and others asking for his resignation before Franken had a chance to defend himself via the proper channels. He could have waited around for the investigation to play out, and he didn’t. He should have, and he clearly recognizes that now, as do other Senators who voiced their regret calling for his head.
Yes, there are absolutely different levels of harassment and assault. A kiss that wasn’t invited or wanted is less egregious than rape or touching body parts and then bullying said person. I haven’t read anything about Franken doing any bullying or silencing of his accusers. Quite the opposite. He absolutely seems sincere in his explanation of what happened, and his apologies. Between a third and half the adolescents I work with have been sexually harassed, assaulted, or raped- some by their step or foster parents. I have to report that, and it’s awful.
But, some on here are going beyond what you are saying, calling for Gillibrand to be primaried, or replacing Smith with Franken. I think both things are ridiculous, and I absolutely will say as much. Franken is no Cuomo or Trump, and some of the accusations against him do seem suspect, which makes it all the more reason he should have stuck around to let the evidence come to light. But if someone wants him to return to public office, what message does that send the women who spoke up against him who aren’t named Tweeden? Sends the wrong message in my opinion, and I think people should know that.

[aparch]

Many of them are raised to believe that is how they are supposed to be treated. Religion doesn't help...

Was just going to say this. There's a whole evangelical subculture where women still see themselves (or are taught to believe) that they're second class to their husband's, and a happy spouse makes a happy house.

Very Stepford Wives -ish

[Kepler]

Was just going to say this. There's a whole evangelical subculture where women still see themselves (or are taught to believe) that they're second class to their husband's, and a happy spouse makes a happy house.

Very Stepford Wives -ish

This. Even here in a comparatively advanced part of the "New South." The death cult is ubiquitous. Millions of women have been conditioned to view themselves as gatling guns to spit out litters of tow-headed **** trophies.

Rural Christian women are essentially farm animals. Their electoral role is to rubber stamp whichever Republican their pastor or husband or other male stand-in for the Invisible Man tells them to.

[Kepler]

Meanwhile, the only honest Republican.

[dxmnkd316]

I mean I completely understand the anger over Gillibrand and others asking for his resignation before Franken had a chance to defend himself via the proper channels. He could have waited around for the investigation to play out, and he didn’t. He should have, and he clearly recognizes that now, as do other Senators who voiced their regret calling for his head.
Yes, there are absolutely different levels of harassment and assault. A kiss that wasn’t invited or wanted is less egregious than rape or touching body parts and then bullying said person. I haven’t read anything about Franken doing any bullying or silencing of his accusers. Quite the opposite. He absolutely seems sincere in his explanation of what happened, and his apologies. Between a third and half the adolescents I work with have been sexually harassed, assaulted, or raped- some by their step or foster parents. I have to report that, and it’s awful.
But, some on here are going beyond what you are saying, calling for Gillibrand to be primaried, or replacing Smith with Franken. I think both things are ridiculous, and I absolutely will say as much. Franken is no Cuomo or Trump, and some of the accusations against him do seem suspect, which makes it all the more reason he should have stuck around to let the evidence come to light. But if someone wants him to return to public office, what message does that send the women who spoke up against him who aren’t named Tweeden? Sends the wrong message in my opinion, and I think people should know that.

Gillibrand is terrible even without the Franken aspect. She should be primaried.

[aparch]

This. Even here in a comparatively advanced part of the "New South." the death cult is ubiquitous. Millions of local women have been conditioned to view themselves as gatling guns to spit out litters of tow-headed **** trophies.

Rural Christian women are essentially farm animals. Their electoral role is to rubber stamp whichever Republican their pastor or husband or other male stand-in for the Invisible Man tells them to.

It creeped me out 20 years ago when my church, very rural Michigan, started a "Men of Grace" committee that was essentially "a woman's place is pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen," as described above.

Funny thing was some of the "very religious" men certainly didn't act that way when not around their wives.

Typical "conservatives" though.



The whole region is your stereotypical blue collar democrat... but they vote R since the turn of the Millenia because of "God, Guns, and Gays." And listening to them whine about immigration when they don't even like the white people from their neighboring township is maddening.

[Kepler]

It creeped me out 20 years ago when my church, very rural Michigan, started a "Men of Grace" committee that was essentially "a woman's place is pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen," as described above.

Funny thing was some of the "very religious" men certainly didn't act that way when not around their wives.

Typical "conservatives" though.



The whole region is your stereotypical blue collar democrat... but they vote R since the turn of the Millenia because of "God, Guns, and Gays." And listening to them whine about immigration when they don't even like the white people from their neighboring township is maddening.

I don't think there are many white blue collar Democrats anymore. That was Reagan's magic pixie dust: he allowed them to embrace their racism. I do not know why* Democrats continue to try to chase them, they are gone forever.

* Yes I do. And, just this one time, it's the Left's fault. The Olds still have this ancient Marxist idea that the working class is the solution to capitalism. It's so not. The white working class are the very last defenders of capitalism, now that all the others have wised up. They are the Volkssturm. The white working class are born fascists. They are not our friends. In a way we should thank Roger Ailes and Frank Luntz and the other cynics who cleaved them off of the Democratic coalition. Like the Dixiecrats, they were a cancer, and we are better off without them.

[Handyman]

I mean I completely understand the anger over Gillibrand and others asking for his resignation before Franken had a chance to defend himself via the proper channels. He could have waited around for the investigation to play out, and he didn’t. He should have, and he clearly recognizes that now, as do other Senators who voiced their regret calling for his head.
Yes, there are absolutely different levels of harassment and assault. A kiss that wasn’t invited or wanted is less egregious than rape or touching body parts and then bullying said person. I haven’t read anything about Franken doing any bullying or silencing of his accusers. Quite the opposite. He absolutely seems sincere in his explanation of what happened, and his apologies. Between a third and half the adolescents I work with have been sexually harassed, assaulted, or raped- some by their step or foster parents. I have to report that, and it’s awful.
But, some on here are going beyond what you are saying, calling for Gillibrand to be primaried, or replacing Smith with Franken. I think both things are ridiculous, and I absolutely will say as much. Franken is no Cuomo or Trump, and some of the accusations against him do seem suspect, which makes it all the more reason he should have stuck around to let the evidence come to light. But if someone wants him to return to public office, what message does that send the women who spoke up against him who aren’t named Tweeden? Sends the wrong message in my opinion, and I think people should know that.

Gillebrand should be primaried cause she sucks but not by Franken. Better candidates in the House to take her down ;^)

The only reason Smith is brought up is cause that is his seat. She is only in the Senate because he stepped down. She is also weaker than Klobuchar especially on the national scene. In reality though she is doing a very good job and representing Minnesota well and likely has the job for as long as she wants it since the MNGOP makes Larry Elder look like a competent politician. If Franken wants back into office he can run for another position.

[Kepler]

Gillebrand should be primaried cause she sucks but not by Franken. Better candidates in the House to take her down ;^)

The only reason Smith is brought up is cause that is his seat. She is only in the Senate because he stepped down. She is also weaker than Klobuchar especially on the national scene. In reality though she is doing a very good job and representing Minnesota well and likely has the job for as long as she wants it since the MNGOP makes Larry Elder look like a competent politician. If Franken wants back into office he can run for another position.

I haven't heard anything bad about Smith. She's weaker than Amy because Amy has been there long enough to sink deep roots of cronyism. I think Tina has the makings of a perfectly cromulent backbencher who will vote the straight D line in exchange for whatever sugar makes her frozen constituents happy. She can hold that seat for 30 years AFAIC.

Gillebrand sucks because she's a wholly owned subsidiary of Wall Street, because she plays footsie with the Aw Shucks Centrists when she doesn't have to, and most importantly because we can do so much better. It's New York, not some ****stain purple state. Our NY Senators should be to the left of Chomsky.

[psych]

Gillebrand should be primaried cause she sucks but not by Franken. Better candidates in the House to take her down ;^)

The only reason Smith is brought up is cause that is his seat. She is only in the Senate because he stepped down. She is also weaker than Klobuchar especially on the national scene. In reality though she is doing a very good job and representing Minnesota well and likely has the job for as long as she wants it since the MNGOP makes Larry Elder look like a competent politician. If Franken wants back into office he can run for another position.

Smith seems like an excellent politician. Minnesotans should be proud they have two outstanding women representing them in the Senate. I know I’m jealous.
I like Gillibrand too, and I think she’s farther left by the objective metrics than most Senators, but I don’t see any New Yorker in a hurry to primary her, so I’m sure she’s safe too. She was “conservative” in the House as a result of the district she represented, but once she became a Senator, she did the opposite of Kyrsten ****wad Sinema.

[ScoobyDoo]

Gillibrand does indeed suck but as I remember it she had the best explanation of what income inequality is and how to fix it in the entire field. I was very sad that she was one of the only ones articulating it properly.