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  • Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is burning down...

    Originally posted by joecct View Post
    Splitting hairs, but since 1905 the French Government owns all the cathedrals that were in France then. One could claim that US $$ going to rebuild ND is a form of foreign aid.
    France is France. We are the United States of America, and are bound by OUR Constitution, not France's. It's a church, and it's very much a Catholic institution. No splitting hairs in that move.

    And France does not need our aid, in any shape or form. We already import stuff from them, which is enough to send money to France.

    Buy more French wine, if that makes you feel better.
    Last edited by alfablue; 04-18-2019, 07:46 PM.

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    • Originally posted by alfablue View Post
      And France does not need our aid, in any shape or form.
      That's a very Trumpian attitude. You help your allies in times of need. You at least make the offer, and they'll turn it down because they've already gotten over a billion in pledges.

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      • Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is burning down...

        Originally posted by unofan View Post
        That's a very Trumpian attitude. You help your allies in times of need. You at least make the offer, and they'll turn it down because they've already gotten over a billion in pledges.
        True. And I'd like to think we'd do something similar if there was serious harm done to the Hagia Sophia (or the Blue Mosque). Turkey is not on the same level of alliance as France, but it is an ally, and the Mosques are similar to the Notre Dame Cathedral in their beauty and historical value.

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        • Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is burning down...

          Is it French public property? Sure, USG aid.

          It is private property? No USG aid. However, POTUS using the bully pulpit to rally private aid would be good.

          But is it a church? No USG aid (or the ACLU will have real A1 issues). Here POTUS would be wise to not "endorse" a religion (unlike prior sentence).

          The head of that pin is getting pretty crowded.
          The preceding post may contain trigger words and is not safe-space approved. <-- Virtue signaling.

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          • Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is burning down...

            Originally posted by Handyman View Post
            Uh no. That doesnt work. No political leader is going to change whether we do this or not just like neither party stops us from working with Middle Eastern Countries that sponsor terrorism. Sorry that is a lame excuse...

            If there wasnt means to send money already I would be fine with this but I dont want my tax dollars going to fixing Notre Dame. We have issues here that need fixing long before we fix other people's issues. France has been throwing money at that money pit for centuries let them continue to.

            And before you get all pius...I have been to Paris and Notre Dame.
            The last thing in the world I am is pious.

            I'm fine with the USG helping out. "Don't be a dick" is a barely minimal standard of conduct, both private and public. When we place process requirements above it we wind up with... well, the world we live in.
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            • Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is burning down...

              I've got to be honest, I fall into the camp that says we shouldn't spend a nickel on it. If the French or any private citizens want to do it, fine, it's their money.

              In my opinion it's wasted money, for the most part. Certainly any money spent on reconstruction is. If they rebuild it and you go in it as a tourist 15 years from now, you're not looking up at a cathedral built in the 1100's. You're looking at walls built in the 1100's and a bunch of other work done in 2019.

              It's not the same.

              It's horrible this great site was damaged by fire, but that's life. It's not the first great historical site lost and it won't be the last.
              That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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              • Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is burning down...

                Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                If they rebuild it and you go in it as a tourist 15 years from now, you're not looking up at a cathedral built in the 1100's. You're looking at walls built in the 1100's and a bunch of other work done in 2019.
                There is a school of thought that agrees with this and says ruins should be left as ruins because those are "authentic." If you want, build a reproduction/museum nearby.

                Here's why I think ND is different, and it's going to be funny because it's a self-contradictory position for me. ND is still a functioning community asset. People still go to ND for non-nostalgic purposes. Therefore I think the building should be restored because it is still "alive," it is not a dead objet d'art. ND is active like the US Capitol Building, not passive like the Pyramids.

                Now... um... that may sound like exactly the opposite of what I was arguing before about USG funding.

                Do I contradict myself?
                Very well then I contradict myself,
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                • Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is burning down...

                  Originally posted by unofan View Post
                  That's a very Trumpian attitude. You help your allies in times of need. You at least make the offer, and they'll turn it down because they've already gotten over a billion in pledges.
                  If we were offering search dogs to help find people, or some other kind of humanitarian assistance, that would be a more valid point.

                  But other than money, there's no real aid we can offer, and I don't exactly see other countries pitching in if our capitol building suffered major fire damage. While countries pledged to help Puerto Rico recover from the hurricanes, did any pledge support for any of the 9/11 terrorism?

                  Our money would be better spent helping rebuild Syria, as the money would be more effective in terms of dollar efficiency.

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                  • Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is burning down...

                    From this point forward, it will be like going to Epcot and visiting “la Notre Dame” while Its A Small World After All is playing.



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                    • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                      I've got to be honest, I fall into the camp that says we shouldn't spend a nickel on it. If the French or any private citizens want to do it, fine, it's their money.

                      In my opinion it's wasted money, for the most part. Certainly any money spent on reconstruction is. If they rebuild it and you go in it as a tourist 15 years from now, you're not looking up at a cathedral built in the 1100's. You're looking at walls built in the 1100's and a bunch of other work done in 2019.

                      It's not the same.

                      It's horrible this great site was damaged by fire, but that's life. It's not the first great historical site lost and it won't be the last.
                      Good grief. I guess I shouldn't have been in such awe when I toured he USS Constitution, since only about 12% of it is original. It's so weird that the US Navy still has it as a commissioned warship when it's not even the original.
                      If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

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                      • Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is burning down...

                        Originally posted by burd View Post
                        True. And I'd like to think we'd do something similar if there was serious harm done to the Hagia Sophia (or the Blue Mosque). Turkey is not on the same level of alliance as France, but it is an ally, and the Mosques are similar to the Notre Dame Cathedral in their beauty and historical value.
                        Let's be real. The only way we're helping a Mosque is if Sniffles can con them into buying construction materials from him. Or they agree to open a Trump Hotel there.

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                        • Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is burning down...

                          Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
                          Good grief. I guess I shouldn't have been in such awe when I toured he USS Constitution, since only about 12% of it is original. It's so weird that the US Navy still has it as a commissioned warship when it's not even the original.
                          I'm not opposed to replicas or reconstructions. I've been on the USS Constitution myself. They can be great at conveying a sense of space, etc..., to a visitor wondering what it was like "back then."

                          But it's not the same. Notre Dame is never going to be Notre Dame again.

                          If the French want to rebuild it to have the partial replica, or because it's a working church, then by all means do so. But I don't think reconstruction of it rises to the level of world crisis which requires action or investment by governments across the planet.
                          That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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                          • Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is burning down...

                            Originally posted by alfablue View Post
                            If we were offering search dogs to help find people, or some other kind of humanitarian assistance, that would be a more valid point.

                            But other than money, there's no real aid we can offer, and I don't exactly see other countries pitching in if our capitol building suffered major fire damage. While countries pledged to help Puerto Rico recover from the hurricanes, did any pledge support for any of the 9/11 terrorism?

                            Our money would be better spent helping rebuild Syria, as the money would be more effective in terms of dollar efficiency.
                            Countries did far more than offer monetary support. They offered military and intelligence. That's offering support in the form of lives. Far more valuable than monetary gifts.

                            Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
                            Good grief. I guess I shouldn't have been in such awe when I toured he USS Constitution, since only about 12% of it is original. It's so weird that the US Navy still has it as a commissioned warship when it's not even the original.
                            Agreed. I don't get the almost hyperbolic cynicism.
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                            • Originally posted by alfablue View Post
                              did any pledge support for any of the 9/11 terrorism?
                              Considering NATO invoked the mutual aid article for the first time ever in response to 9/11, that is a resounding yes.

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                              • Re: Notre Dame Cathedral is burning down...

                                Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                                But I don't think reconstruction of it rises to the level of world crisis which requires action or investment by governments across the planet.
                                This is a logical fallacy, though. It's the argument that when we rank order priorities we cannot justify spending anything on priority 2 unless we completely solve priority 1. But that's now how things really work. Problems are diminished but rarely completely solved. Also: enhancement of life is not made completely irrelevant by the persistence of suffering.

                                I'm sympathetic to what you're saying: no city should pass a bond for a ballpark when it can't afford books. But I think that is not analogous to this. Not to mention that to a global donation base one billion euros is noise.
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