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  • #751
    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

    Originally posted by Kepler View Post
    Those people are criminally insane and they're straight ticket R. The battle isn't for them.
    A agree the battle is not for them.

    Comment

    • #752
      Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

      Originally posted by Rover View Post
      The blame for Iraq falls on the Bush administration. Not on anybody else. If you recall, the Dems in the Senate were asking Shrub to give it time for the inspectors to go in there and confirm the WMD's. Knuckledraggers wouldn't allow that and asked for a resolution immediately due to an imminent threat which they backed up with doctored intelligence and even roped in the Brits for the ride. I'm not sure how you hold people who were conned as up for as much blame as the con artists themselves?
      You're the one literally blaming (individual) voters and Nader for the war and letting the politicians who actually voted for the war off the hook so...

      (it's not like they couldn't have voted against the war until they actually got the info necessary to make the decision)

      Comment

      • #753
        Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

        Originally posted by Handyman View Post
        Let's also not forget the people weren't exactly against it either.
        16 year-old Fade was all for it! "We'll put a boot in their a55, it's the 'Murican way!"

        Comment

        • #754
          Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

          15 year old me thought it’d be done and over with quickly, idk if I was actually for it or not (I kinda just told people I was a republican back then because that’s how my parents identified, but didn’t pay any attention to politics in the slightest until a couple years later).

          Comment

          • #755
            Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

            Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
            The politicians have far more responsibility and power than the people but yes it was popular at the time.
            Right but if their constituents are in favor of the war isnt it also partly their responsibility to represent the people? (the Representative part of Representative Democracy)

            It is easy to look back through the lens of history but back then things were different. Now the argument to that thought is "yeah but they should know better they have access to more info" which is 100% correct as well. A lot of people both in Congress and just in general believed people of honor like Colin Powell would never hitch their wagons to something unless it was legit. That was not the case and we have never really recovered from it.

            Keep in my mind I am not excusing it...they all screwed up. Some mea culped and some made excuses but at the time a vote against the War was not seen well by the public so it is not surprising a lot of people let that be enough of a reason to just make the uneducated decision.
            "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
            -aparch

            "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
            -INCH

            Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
            -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

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            • #756
              Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

              Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
              I was highly skeptical. I did say at least once that I was ok with it if they proved there was WMD's. They didn't. And, I felt duped. Never again.
              Me too. Once it became apparent (rather quickly) that the "evidence" was bullcrap I was out.

              That was the big miscalculation by the GOPers...if they are just honest and dont lie about the WMD they probably still get their war and none of the blowback in 2008 over it. Plenty of people felt we didnt need justification to finish the job in Iraq...
              "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
              -aparch

              "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
              -INCH

              Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
              -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

              Comment

              • #757
                Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                Right but if their constituents are in favor of the war isnt it also partly their responsibility to represent the people? (the Representative part of Representative Democracy)
                This is a classic debate.
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                • #758
                  Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                  Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                  Those people are criminally insane and they're straight ticket R. The battle isn't for them.

                  In the first few months of War Fever everyone, even D, even smarty D, is on board. The ladies line the street and the brave boys with their shining uniforms line up and march to the open maw of the pit. The collective IQ drops to zero in a flood of pheromones and grade school narratives. Everyone is, literally, stupefied -- it is The Great Hunt; the eons-old echo of our reptile brains.

                  And then first the smarties and then even the dummies realize what a disaster it all is. And everybody turns against it. And everyone moans oh how could we have been so shortsighted?

                  So... don't be. Next time it happens be ready and deny it, especially in yourself. Say, "no -- this is a drug and I am saying no to it and yes to life." Just be well protected because the rest of the mob is going to want to kill you.
                  Well we should treat war like we treat anything...never go on first impulse take a step back, let time pass and see if you feel the same way. If you still want war with a cooler head at least it is more than rage fueling you.

                  Of course that isnt universal either because sometimes you need to counterpunch. The world is very different if FDR doesnt go to War almost immediately after Pearl Harbor.
                  "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                  -aparch

                  "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                  -INCH

                  Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                  -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

                  Comment

                  • #759
                    Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                    Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                    This is a classic debate.
                    I loved debates about that in Social Studies
                    "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                    -aparch

                    "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                    -INCH

                    Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                    -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

                    Comment

                    • #760
                      Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                      If we're directly attacked by a country obviously that changes the calculation considerably.

                      Comment

                      • #761
                        Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                        Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                        Of course that isnt universal either because sometimes you need to counterpunch. The world is very different if FDR doesnt go to War almost immediately after Pearl Harbor.
                        I'm not sure WW2 is a good example. Although we declare war the day after it takes us months to get up to speed before we do anything of significance to slow down Japan.

                        There are certainly good examples, though. You should respond immediately to a invasion, but when you're just cooling your heels in the War Room deciding which sovereign nation to rape I think it behooves you to wait, and wait, and then not do it.

                        Unless your plan is to socialize costs and privatize plunder. Then you should rush before somebody gets wise. And indeed that was what Cheney did, just like they drew it up in the 90s.

                        As it turned out, of course, their victims never got wise. Those service families are still Republicans while the Cheneys and Bushes lounge on the profits they made off murdering those soldiers. Plutocracy is fun.
                        Last edited by Kepler; 07-03-2019, 03:44 PM.
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                        • #762
                          Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                          Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                          Me too. Once it became apparent (rather quickly) that the "evidence" was bullcrap I was out.

                          That was the big miscalculation by the GOPers...if they are just honest and dont lie about the WMD they probably still get their war and none of the blowback in 2008 over it. Plenty of people felt we didnt need justification to finish the job in Iraq...
                          I was OK with Afghanistan but against Iraq from the start. I don't remember the name of the guy in charge of the inspections, but he was saying all along that there was no evidence of WMD. It was his job to know.

                          The harm meter is still running on that catastrophic decision. Dems have not owned their role in it as much as they should, IMO, possibly because they STILL are wary about being portrayed as soft on terrorism and unsupportive of our men and women in service. Which is pure BS, of course, but it is effective, even among some of those in the Zone of Difference everyone is so anxious to motivate. Stars and Stripes and Patriotism are like Pavlov's bell with too many voters.

                          Comment

                          • #763
                            Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                            Originally posted by burd View Post
                            I was OK with Afghanistan but against Iraq from the start. I don't remember the name of the guy in charge of the inspections, but he was saying all along that there was no evidence of WMD. It was his job to know.
                            Hans Blix. The CIA tried to smear him when he didn't come back with the answers the USG wanted. I'm a little surprised we didn't murder him; that's typically what happens when you step in front of the Empire.

                            Remind me again why every member of the Dubya administration isn't in prison for life?
                            Last edited by Kepler; 07-03-2019, 04:00 PM.
                            Cornell University
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                            • #764
                              Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                              Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                              Hans Blix. The CIA tried to smear him when he didn't come back with the answers the USG wanted. I'm a little surprised we didn't murder him; that's typically what happens when you step in front of the Empire.

                              Remind me again why every member of the Dubya administration isn't in prison for life?
                              Hans Blix! Oh no!!
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                              • #765
                                Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

                                Originally posted by MinnesotaNorthStar View Post
                                Hans Blix! Oh no!!
                                I always think of this.
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