The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Well duh...Edina, Minnetonka and Wayzata are awful

The biggest farce of them all is...even if the name stayed at Bde Maka Ska everyone still called it Calhoun. The name change is completely ceremonial. Just like everybody still calls it Mariucci Arena not the corporate name.

I call it 3M Arena because it makes people's heads explode.

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

And dx, maybe look beyond Wikipedia when looking into history. Lindbergh and his beliefs have been known for decades...

I get that and don't necessarily disagree. But wikipedia is a great source to get five minutes to get 80% of the necessary information on a subject to have a casual conversation. Instead of spending hours or tens of hours reading to get that last 20%. I don't get why people rag on wikipedia. I wouldn't cite it in a research paper, but for everyday things it's a great resource.

That said, can you recommend anything in particular?

[Kepler]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

As far as I can tell, the only way I "lost" was as a tax paying citizen of Minnesota. First, I didn't take a position either for or against any of the name changes (I really don't care what they name the buildings or lake), other than to argue that it seems like a huge waste of time and money to first "study" this and then have the fight.

Second, none of the names were changed, which again kind of proves my point. They went through all the time and money, and then didn't even change the names of the buildings, and, as it turned out, lacked the legal authority to change the name of the lake. Maybe they should have spent the money on a lawyer's opinion, then followed it.

I meant "lost" in the sense that something somebody did irked you. That happens every day to me, and when the somebody is a governing authority that supposedly speaks in my name I definitely feel like I've been taken. Pretty much anything Dump does moment to moment is a direct affront to me as an American citizen. My recourse is obvious and I intend to exercise it in 2020.

As far as spending money on sh-t you don't agree with: welcome to democracy.

[SJHovey]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Some of this is a deep philosophical question of whether there are enduring standards of right and wrong. Presuming that 99% of people today agree that slavery is wrong that number was significantly less in 1819 or 1719. Was slavery always wrong? Are right and wrong forever and all that changes is the numbers of people who have the wrong opinion about it? If moral standards are eternal and absolute -- the typical conservative position by the way -- then Calhoun was always exactly as wrong as he is today and therefore he should not be honored.

But most of this is the trivial fact that we should be allowed to name things whatever we want. That something was called x yesterday, or for a hundred years, doesn't mean we can't change it to y with a Thanos snap, for whatever reason we want. We are the living -- we are not the slaves of the dead.

Of course we can change it, and as I've previously posted, the name of these objects is entirely irrelevant.

But, there are real world financial consequences for making those changes. There are people and businesses that identify by that street name or that lake name. Maybe they have to change signs and business cards and websites, etc... Maybe they have to chisel the word "Coffman" out of 100 year old granite. I have no idea of the real impact.

If the student union at the U of M was named Adolph Hitler Memorial Union people would be like, w t f?

I didn't attend the U of M but I've been in the memorial union many times. I knew it was called Coffman, but I had no idea who that was, whether it was a man or woman, or what their past may have been like. All around me I would see black kids and brown kids and yellow kids and red kids and white kids sitting and socializing or eating some food or studying and not a single one of them gave a second thought as to the name of the building.

If that's the case, then is it really that bad?

[trixR4kids]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

as far as i can tell, the only way i "lost" was as a tax paying citizen of minnesota. First, i didn't take a position either for or against any of the name changes (i really don't care what they name the buildings or lake), other than to argue that it seems like a huge waste of time and money to first "study" this and then have the fight.

i have no idea of the real impact.

lmao

[Kepler]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

If that's the case, then is it really that bad?

Let's say there is a beautiful old tree on a college campus, famous for decades for sportsball victory celebrations, iconic graduation photos, and fumbling midnight trysts.

One day a historian realizes it was used for lynchings long before the college was founded. The black student association protests. The liberals on campus demand action. Finally the student council recommends the tree be cut down because its presence is deeply offensive to many students and visitors.

(Mostly white, rich) alumni protest and threaten to withhold money. Environmentalists are split -- everybody agrees it's not the poor tree's fault. Everybody agrees that the removal of the tree will cost the campus a tremendous amount of history; all of it, prior to the revelation, positive -- all of it shared by all students of whatever color.

What has been seen cannot be unseen.

[Handyman]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

I call it 3M Arena because it makes people's heads explode.

Well that is just funny. Only thing better is asking what time is the game on tv

[SJHovey]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Let's say there is a beautiful old tree on a college campus, famous for decades for sportsball victory celebrations, iconic graduation photos, and fumbling midnight trysts.

One day a historian realizes it was used for lynchings long before the college was founded. The black student association protests. The liberals on campus demand action. Finally the student council recommends the tree be cut down because its presence is deeply offensive to many students and visitors.

(Mostly white, rich) alumni protest and threaten to withhold money. Environmentalists are split -- everybody agrees it's not the poor tree's fault. Everybody agrees that the removal of the tree will cost the campus a tremendous amount of history; all of it, prior to the revelation, positive -- all of it shared by all students of whatever color.

What has been seen cannot be unseen.

Cut the tree down. Trees get cut down all the time and there is no real cost (other than a few hours of worker time), just sentimental cost.

[mookie1995]

Let's say there is a beautiful old tree on a college campus, famous for decades for sportsball victory celebrations, iconic graduation photos, and fumbling midnight trysts.

One day a historian realizes it was used for lynchings long before the college was founded. The black student association protests. The liberals on campus demand action. Finally the student council recommends the tree be cut down because its presence is deeply offensive to many students and visitors.

(Mostly white, rich) alumni protest and threaten to withhold money. Environmentalists are split -- everybody agrees it's not the poor tree's fault. Everybody agrees that the removal of the tree will cost the campus a tremendous amount of history; all of it, prior to the revelation, positive -- all of it shared by all students of whatever color.

What has been seen cannot be unseen.

Shoot the historian and call it a day....

..some things are better left unsaid
...don’t ask, don’t tell

[mookie1995]

Shoot the historian and call it a day....

..some things are better left unsaid
...don’t ask, don’t tell

....don’t make your problems my problems

[Kepler]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

I get that and don't necessarily disagree. But wikipedia is a great source to get five minutes to get 80% of the necessary information on a subject to have a casual conversation. Instead of spending hours or tens of hours reading to get that last 20%. I don't get why people rag on wikipedia. I wouldn't cite it in a research paper, but for everyday things it's a great resource.

I agree with this. I've read a trillion high brow research books from university presses and I almost always go to Wikipedia for a first gloss. The Wikipedia article on Hegel is 20 pages. The SEP article is 26 pages... because it's only one of a couple dozen articles spreading over several hundred pages!

Executive summaries, used judiciously, are essential to gaining information efficiently.

[Handyman]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

I get that and don't necessarily disagree. But wikipedia is a great source to get five minutes to get 80% of the necessary information on a subject to have a casual conversation. Instead of spending hours or tens of hours reading to get that last 20%. I don't get why people rag on wikipedia. I wouldn't cite it in a research paper, but for everyday things it's a great resource.

That said, can you recommend anything in particular?

I use wikipedia all the time...but I also look at the sources used and click on them to get the full story.

For Lindbergh the History channel did some stuff. Havent read many books on the subject because I never much cared for Lindbergh or his story. You can find video of his speeches too. I personally can deal with wanting to stay out of the War (even though his reasoning sucked...he thought the War was over and we couldnt help) but his Antisemitism goes beyond the Nazi thing.

That said I have never said any of the airports named after him should be renamed either. His accomplishments as a pilot are a separate deal from his racism.

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

That said I have never said any of the airports named after him should be renamed either. His accomplishments as a pilot are a separate deal from his racism.

Whereas pretty much all of Calhoun's "accomplishments" are virtually inseparable from the cause of slavery and its westward expansion.

[St. Clown]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Didn’t Lindbergh change to terminal one years ago?

Who the hell goes to Calhoun square? Or uptown??

Both Lindbergh and Humphrey terminals are signed as 1 & 2 and by their legacy names. The hitch is that it's not 100% consistent as to the naming convention on each and every sign. It's a solid way to maximize confusion on a general level.

[French Rage]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Let's say there is a beautiful old tree on a college campus, famous for decades for sportsball victory celebrations, iconic graduation photos, and fumbling midnight trysts.

One day a historian realizes it was used for lynchings long before the college was founded. The black student association protests. The liberals on campus demand action. Finally the student council recommends the tree be cut down because its presence is deeply offensive to many students and visitors.

(Mostly white, rich) alumni protest and threaten to withhold money. Environmentalists are split -- everybody agrees it's not the poor tree's fault. Everybody agrees that the removal of the tree will cost the campus a tremendous amount of history; all of it, prior to the revelation, positive -- all of it shared by all students of whatever color.

What has been seen cannot be unseen.

I would call BS that no one knew about the lynchings before the historian brought it up.