Covfefe-19 The 12th Part: The Only Thing Worse Than This New Board Is TrumpVirus2020

[ScoobyDoo]

My best friend from high school is an attorney. He 100% non-ironically believes the Biden and Trump situations are legally identical.

This is the guy who got me into King Crismon and Zappa and Vonnegut. He's not an idiot.

It's terrifying what ideology does to the brain.

He what? How? How does he get there? No one with a functioning Cortex gets there.

[Swansong]

I know a lot of otherwise smart people that insist upon the same. Even pointing out that Trump isn't being charged with anything related to anything returned before or pursuant to the subpoena. Doesn't matter.

[ScoobyDoo]

I know a lot of otherwise smart people that insist upon the same. Even pointing out that Trump isn't being charged with anything related to anything returned before or pursuant to the subpoena. Doesn't matter.

There's a guy who just went to jail for documents for 3 years. Could they have prosecuted Hillary, Biden, or Pence? Sure. But they complied with the subpoena. He didn't. All he had to do was give the **** back. That's the difference on the documents case. On Jan 6th he deserves the death penalty.

[ScoobyDoo]

Even Bill Barr says that the case is legit. Trump should have either moved to have the subpoena squashed OR sued after they took the documents in Court to get the documents back if he really believed they were his.

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

As long as Faux keeps unironically pumping out headlines comparing Biden to a dictator jailing their opponents on arbitrary charges, even people who are otherwise smart will believe it. I know several engineers who can build bridges, create brilliant new alloys, design complex engines, batteries, or software solutions, etc. They are very competent within their disciplines, but I also know enough about their political leanings that I hope they believe Rs & Ds are a "uni-party" and they don't vote.

[French Rage]

There's a guy who just went to jail for documents for 3 years. Could they have prosecuted Hillary, Biden, or Pence? Sure. But they complied with the subpoena. He didn't. All he had to do was give the **** back. That's the difference on the documents case. On Jan 6th he deserves the death penalty.

Correct me if I'm me wrong, but the charges aren't even for the documents he had and gave back the first time, they are specifically for the ones he held on to, right?

I was thinking about this some more, and granted none of what I'm saying is based off of any legal knowledge, so take it with whatever grains of salt. If low-level random guy A gets caught with a document or two, there's a question of why he ever had that document in the first place, if not for nefarious reasons, since the document had nothing to do with him. If a former high level member of an administration ends up with some documents, there's a good chance those documents relate to them in some way, given all of the things they came into contact with a POTUS or VP or something high level. That's what at the end of administrations they have a big big review process to go through all of the documents that officials have on them that they may want to take with them to use in libraries or memoirs or other legit reasons. It is not inconceivable that given these hundreds of thousands of documents that some may work there way through the review process that should not have; the reviewers are only human themselves. So if you have it on record that the people in the administration went through the correct review process (which you do for every administration except the last; if the last did do it, it certainly didn't make the level of news it usually does), I'm not going to be surprised if some that should have been removed make it into their possession given the pure volume. And if/when they do make it into their possession, then it comes down to how they react and cooperate. Biden and even Pence immediately did everything they could to cooperate; that's why no one is going after them. Trump hid and obstructed in an almost comical fashion; that's why he is hopefully getting the book thrown at him.

But my above point is, there's a reason why "former POTUS/VP ending up with 20 documents" != "corporal shmuck ending up with 1 document".

[LynahFan]

It's not the crime, it's the cleanup. Or lack thereof.

[MichVandal]

Correct me if I'm me wrong, but the charges aren't even for the documents he had and gave back the first time, they are specifically for the ones he held on to, right?

I was thinking about this some more, and granted none of what I'm saying is based off of any legal knowledge, so take it with whatever grains of salt. If low-level random guy A gets caught with a document or two, there's a question of why he ever had that document in the first place, if not for nefarious reasons, since the document had nothing to do with him. If a former high level member of an administration ends up with some documents, there's a good chance those documents relate to them in some way, given all of the things they came into contact with a POTUS or VP or something high level. That's what at the end of administrations they have a big big review process to go through all of the documents that officials have on them that they may want to take with them to use in libraries or memoirs or other legit reasons. It is not inconceivable that given these hundreds of thousands of documents that some may work there way through the review process that should not have; the reviewers are only human themselves. So if you have it on record that the people in the administration went through the correct review process (which you do for every administration except the last; if the last did do it, it certainly didn't make the level of news it usually does), I'm not going to be surprised if some that should have been removed make it into their possession given the pure volume. And if/when they do make it into their possession, then it comes down to how they react and cooperate. Biden and even Pence immediately did everything they could to cooperate; that's why no one is going after them. Trump hid and obstructed in an almost comical fashion; that's why he is hopefully getting the book thrown at him.

But my above point is, there's a reason why "former POTUS/VP ending up with 20 documents" != "corporal shmuck ending up with 1 document".

For the randomness you point, sure. But corporal shmuck isn't likely to have access to documents that they are not supposed to have. So the odds are that the person has access for real work reasons- just like the POTUS. So, in reality, it's closer, but not the same.

If they got documents they are not supposed to have access to, then the prosecution needs to be even more robust, as that's bordering on espionage.

But there are very, very, very few documents the POTUS isn't supposed to have.

Still, for this case, the clear attempt to hide the retention multiple times, specifically instruct people to do that, and showing off the documents- that's the real case here.

That being said, not sure what this has to do with COVID anymore. LOL.

[Kepler]

But there are very, very, very few documents the POTUS isn't supposed to have.

The second he isn't President he becomes just like any bum on the street.

There are documents which a President, while still President, can request retention of, for purposes like memoirs or a Presidential library. But it goes through a lengthy formal review process. An Ex-President is entitled to literally nothing else. When Dump took those documents to Mar-A-Lago, he was stealing classified intelligence the exposure of which would result in a significant loss of American lives and security.

Fry him.

[French Rage]

That being said, not sure what this has to do with COVID anymore. LOL.

Wait, we've been in the Covid thread the whole time?

[ticapnews]

That being said, not sure what this has to do with COVID anymore. LOL.

A fitting metaphor for this country's response to Coronavirus.

[MichVandal]

The second he isn't President he becomes just like any bum on the street.

There are documents which a President, while still President, can request retention of, for purposes like memoirs or a Presidential library. But it goes through a lengthy formal review process. An Ex-President is entitled to literally nothing else. When Dump took those documents to Mar-A-Lago, he was stealing classified intelligence the exposure of which would result in a significant loss of American lives and security.

Fry him.

While true, at least there's some "excuse" for having a document, and then claim it a mistake, return document, everyone is happy. That's happened a few times like for Pence. But all of the stuff that happened beyond that, yea.

Still, the people who insisted, no brag, to not get a vaccine, and the area of those people who continue to die of COVID and suffer everything around that- they are not likely to understand that at all.

[Kepler]

While true, at least there's some "excuse" for having a document, and then claim it a mistake, return document, everyone is happy. That's happened a few times like for Pence. But all of the stuff that happened beyond that, yea.

Well, it's not so much excuse as forgiveness. it's illegal, but you don't get the chair if you comply and show a pattern of behavior honestly trying to rectify the mistakes.

But Dump has behaved like a criminal throughout this whole process, and throughout his life in general.

[French Rage]

While true, at least there's some "excuse" for having a document, and then claim it a mistake, return document, everyone is happy. That's happened a few times like for Pence. But all of the stuff that happened beyond that, yea.

My earlier point being, given the pure volume of documents that a VP/POTUS is trying to bring back with them (legally), I could see some slipping through the review process completely by accident. It's not robots doing the reviewing, it's humans who make mistakes. And the recipient is also not going to magically know what every single document that ends up in their possession is, given the volume there too, and it's reasonable for them to assume the review process did its job correctly. So, again assuming one is going through correct process and going through it sincerely, it would not surprise me if some documents ended up in their possession, unbeknownst to them at the time, only for them to notice it at a later time. So as long as they cooperate with the authorities at the later time to make sure things get rectified as much as possible I'm not losing sleep over it.

Of course, none of this was the case with Trump, and that's the problem. There was never a concern for the correct process, things did not end up with him accidentally, he knew he had things he should not, and he repeatedly stalled the attempts to rectify the process.

[Swansong]

My earlier point being, given the pure volume of documents that a VP/POTUS is trying to bring back with them (legally), I could see some slipping through the review process completely by accident. It's not robots doing the reviewing, it's humans who make mistakes. And the recipient is also not going to magically know what every single document that ends up in their possession is, given the volume there too, and it's reasonable for them to assume the review process did its job correctly. So, again assuming one is going through correct process and going through it sincerely, it would not surprise me if some documents ended up in their possession, unbeknownst to them at the time, only for them to notice it at a later time. So as long as they cooperate with the authorities at the later time to make sure things get rectified as much as possible I'm not losing sleep over it.

Of course, none of this was the case with Trump, and that's the problem. There was never a concern for the correct process, things did not end up with him accidentally, he knew he had things he should not, and he repeatedly stalled the attempts to rectify the process.

This is correct, at least as far as I understand it. Intent, how you came into possession of said documents, their level of classification, and then how you respond when discovered. All of these will determine the "what now". In the cases of both Biden and Pence, they self reported. Classifications were low (fortunately). They both actively assisted the FBI with further searches. Most likely, staffers included them by mistake.

None of that was the case with Trump, who collected absolutely everything, turned over just enough that he thought would get NARA off his back, and then actively obstructed the rest. Not to mention his constant dissemination.


So yeah, to tie this into Covid, the people that insist these are the same situations are the same people that look back at 2020-present and say "man, was that ever overblown!"

And no, you cannot reason yourself out of a belief you didn't reason yourself into.