Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Covfefe-19 The 12th Part: The Only Thing Worse Than This New Board Is TrumpVirus2020

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post

    Nursing Homes or long term care facilities are really interesting. They are a necessity when a person physically or mentally deteriorates to a point where they can't live alone, and either don't have someone to care for them, or their care is significant enough that an untrained family member really isn't capable of handling it.

    I'd really be curious how many people who live in nursing homes really want to be there. I suspect that number is fairly low.

    I would also be curious as to the number of people in their 80's or 90's who have executed health care directives or living wills, or signed do not resuscitate documents.

    None of that is to say that their lives are unimportant, or not worth protecting to the extent we can. But I think what he is saying is that most of these individuals are at the very end of their lives. If, as in Minnesota, 75% or more of the victims of this disease are such people, then when it comes time to evaluate the societal costs of our preventative measures, we really need to look at the extent to which those preventative measures contribute to other risk factors like poverty and suicide, and balance it against say the 25% of the people victimized by the disease who are not at the very end of their lives. If I'm 95 and have maybe months to live anyway, is it worth it to put millions on soup lines to make sure I get those last few months?
    What I think the assumptions you are making are-
    People enter NH only if they are unable to care for themselves.
    People do not want to be there.
    Many old People are at the very end of their lives, are DNR so is it worth it to intervene?

    Having rounded Nursing homes early in my career, cared for the elderly for a few decades and now teaching in nursing homes I struggle with a lot of that.

    Many, many people who are admitted do not belong there. They would be able to stay at home with minimal assistance. They end up admitted because insurance does not pay for assistance in the home. If they try without assistance it leads to falls and other events that are completely preventable. Most developed countries, other than our backwater one, provide for this assistance and keep people in their homes way longer and cheaper. We are stupid, let people get in big trouble and then admit them to an expensive place and then they can't go home because insurance won't pay for help.

    Not everyone doesn't want to be there. Some people self admit or are admitted after a fall and decide to stay because they have no assistance at home (for stuff like meals, organizing meds, etc). Again, minimal assistance would probably keep them in their home safely but in our country makes this nigh impossible (all sorts of research showing people are better off and cheaper to have at home but insurance doesn't cover it. That is the only reason they are in house rather than at home.)

    There are many, many people who are not DNR. They have all sorts of reasons- religion, still being fairly active and healthy, belief they will get better or will find a way to get assistance to go home. More than half my patients felt it was an affront to God and there were plenty more who didn't think it was time to decide that yet. I would say that less than 10% of the people in the nursing homes where I have been are in a state of waiting to die .

    I am really confused with the last part- we need to look at societal costs of our preventative measures, the extent to which those preventative measures contribute to other risk factors like poverty and suicide, and balance it against the 25% of the people victimized by the disease who are not at the very end of their lives. If I'm 95 and have maybe months to live anyway, is it worth it to put millions on soup lines to make sure I get those last few months?
    It looks like you are making the assumption that patients get the full court press to the detriment of others in society. This would be true if we had a system that was responsible for caring for all of us. We do not. Our system is profit/insurance based. There is plenty of money if we were not to rely on insurance companies who must turn a profit for their shareholders.

    Spent a couple of decades discussing level of care with patients. Recommendation for screening and treatment is tailored to the patient and takes into consideration whether it is likely to be beneficial for that patient. Some insurances impede good medicine using age as a parameter rather than the state of the patient, require tests that might not be appropriate or decline to pay depending on plan.

    If I am 95...is it worth it to be sure if I get those last few months? Sounds great. Who decides how long the person has- older people regularly defy logic for surviving and doing fairly OK. Dad les is 89 and has multiple co-morbidities. He can wear out my 24 yr old son who runs marathons. I am pretty sure he would be willing to whoop a55 if he saw that while telling you 'Semper Fi!'

    Beyond all that I find it kind of disgusting how willing our culture is to dismiss the olds as a waste of resources. What we have was built by their efforts. Most of them have paid in for yrs. When they no longer have the ability to pay in we throw them away.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Kepler View Post

      No there aren't, the anti-vax liberals are down in the noise.
      I dont know what you mean by "down in the noise" but they are in the exact same spots the Trumper HCQ morons are sharing the same articles talking about it the same way. Hell the fact that FDA came out and said it doesnt help made them even more bold because they dont trust ANYTHING the FDA says.

      They are outnumbered...but they exist in much bigger numbers than you want to believe.
      "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
      -aparch

      "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
      -INCH

      Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
      -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

      Comment


      • Originally posted by bronconick View Post
        He appears to think herd immunity is around 30%, and that's why China, South Korea and Italy improved, ignoring the draconian lockdown acts those three countries enforced. So he's kind of hit and miss.
        30% is still 500,000-1,000,000 dead.
        Code:
        As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
        College Hockey 6       College Football 0
        BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
        Originally posted by SanTropez
        May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
        Originally posted by bigblue_dl
        I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
        Originally posted by Kepler
        When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
        He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

        Comment


        • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post

          With respect to your dad, he should do what my folks (both in their 80's) are doing. He should be careful. Wear a mask. Limit his time in public. Limit the number of people he visits, or that he allows to visit him. Probably all of the things he is doing.

          With respect to the people under the age of 70, yes, there are people under 70 who get the disease, people who have terrible lingering effects from the disease, or who even die from the disease.

          But, those numbers are significantly different than the risks to those over 70.

          All I am saying is that you have to look at the actual number of those people and at least consider that as against the cost of the preventative measures.
          My dad takes all of the correct precautions...the problem is the rest of the people around cant be trusted to do it. (he still has to work because they have almost no savings) According to the Party of Personal Responsibility he should be willing to risk that to make sure things get back up and running. We believe that is bull****.

          I dont care if my risk factors are minimal (I am reasonably healthy and take the necessary precautions) if I want to see my father I have to act like I am at risk at all times. Which means when I see people *****ing and moaning because they have to wear a mask at Costco I want to kick them in the nuts. That is why as much as it sucks for my friends in the restaurant business (and me, I will lose about 19k in bartending revenue this year because of COVID), we should have not opened them when we did. (thankfully we havent been burned by it as bad as FL and TX have been) People are needlessly dying because half this country cant be bothered to do the right thing.

          You called me coldhearted once because I was willing to let a bunch of small businesses fail. (ironically my dad said similar only about the riots) I dont want anyone to fail...but I want people to live. Human Life >>>>>>>>>>> Bob's Pull Tab and Hooker Sports Bar in Bumbphikistan, Wisconsin. And it isnt just about the people that go to the bar, it is about the people they infect when they go there. Look at all the people who get it at church...or family gatherings. We are a society, as such we have a responsibility to protect EVERYONE...not just those we deem to be young enough they have a future. And while my heart bleeds for small business owners who do the right thing and take the necessary precautions, the truth is their business is not more important than the lives of the average citizen. They can get another job...my mom cant get another life long friend to replace the one COVID took from her.
          "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
          -aparch

          "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
          -INCH

          Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
          -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

          Comment


          • Originally posted by psych View Post

            Whoops. My bad again. Either way, my entirely unimportant opinion on the matter still stands.

            Didn’t you post back in March it was a friend who broached the subject about how many lives saved would be required in order to justify shutting down the economy, decimating many places, including a slew of minority-owned business? You asked then yourself what number of lives would it, in fact, take. I don’t remember your answer.
            I do remember my friend asking me that, but I don't remember my specific post about it. I assume you or rufus have it saved somewhere and are ready to trot it out at a moments notice.

            What was my number? I don't think it was the 20,000 figure because I think that was my guess on the deaths.

            I have just always thought that the media, and a lot of people here, lose track of scale.

            What if CNN each night started with, "OMG, 8000 people died in the US again today. What is that, 12,000 days in a row?"

            I think I remember reading somewhere that something like 60 million people die each year in the world. My response was something like, "***, 60 million people?!?!" It's an incomprehensible number.

            1800 people died of heart disease in the US yesterday. And the day before. And the day before that, and so on.

            Yeah, it's all tragic when people die. It sucks when it's a loved one or a friend. But a little perspective is useful, too. I don't suggest that we all go cower in Trump's bunker because death is stalking us.
            That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post

              Don't we do this every day in this country, and all around the world?

              We don't ban autos, we don't ban airplanes, we let people go out on fishing boats, we let people work on oil rigs. In doing so we know people will die as a consequence of our decisions. We don't want them to die. We try to take steps to minimize the chances of it happening.

              We make those economic decisions all the time.
              Yes we do...but we also regulate the things that are dangerous to mitigate the risks. We didnt do that here. We didnt even do a cost benefit analysis of what needed to be done. We could have gone into a real shut down with UBI/PPP to protect people and companies and come out cheaper and better off. We also would have saved tens of thousands of lives. And this isnt hindsight, it is the stuff people were saying in friggin April!

              If this disease only hurt the infected you would have a better point. But there is no comparison between the dangers you are mentioning and this pandemic. If I die in a plane crash, unless my dad is on the plane he isnt catching it.

              If the decision of someone puts others at risk, they dont get to do it. That is just how it works.

              edit: As you said in another post people die in large amounts every day. But if my dad has another heart attack that is tragic just like if he dies from COVID. The difference is most likely if he dies of Heart Disease or a stroke it is because of choices he made. Also my mom wont be at risk. If he gets COVID because some dip**** had to get a few drinks at the bar and spread it at his job he is not the only one at risk. Everyone in that case was preventable. My dad might have done everything right but someone else's bad decisions doomed him.
              Last edited by Handyman; 08-04-2020, 04:38 PM.
              "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
              -aparch

              "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
              -INCH

              Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
              -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

              Comment


              • Originally posted by leswp1 View Post

                Because as you can see from the post right after yours we have a few people who like to play and engage. Maybe Board (if it exists) thinks with the amount of engagement and knee jerk responses people don't think the person is a troll?
                board exists...I am sure they will show up in a couple days to pretend like they are moderating again. The fact this thread is still open (well past 1000 posts now) proves they have completely checked out though.
                "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                -aparch

                "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                -INCH

                Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Handyman View Post

                  My dad takes all of the correct precautions...the problem is the rest of the people around cant be trusted to do it. (he still has to work because they have almost no savings) According to the Party of Personal Responsibility he should be willing to risk that to make sure things get back up and running. We believe that is bull****.

                  I dont care if my risk factors are minimal (I am reasonably healthy and take the necessary precautions) if I want to see my father I have to act like I am at risk at all times. Which means when I see people *****ing and moaning because they have to wear a mask at Costco I want to kick them in the nuts. That is why as much as it sucks for my friends in the restaurant business (and me, I will lose about 19k in bartending revenue this year because of COVID), we should have not opened them when we did. (thankfully we havent been burned by it as bad as FL and TX have been) People are needlessly dying because half this country cant be bothered to do the right thing.

                  You called me coldhearted once because I was willing to let a bunch of small businesses fail. (ironically my dad said similar only about the riots) I dont want anyone to fail...but I want people to live. Human Life >>>>>>>>>>> Bob's Pull Tab and Hooker Sports Bar in Bumbphikistan, Wisconsin. And it isnt just about the people that go to the bar, it is about the people they infect when they go there. Look at all the people who get it at church...or family gatherings. We are a society, as such we have a responsibility to protect EVERYONE...not just those we deem to be young enough they have a future. And while my heart bleeds for small business owners who do the right thing and take the necessary precautions, the truth is their business is not more important than the lives of the average citizen. They can get another job...my mom cant get another life long friend to replace the one COVID took from her.
                  But let me ask this.

                  I think I'm right when I report that 75% of the deaths in Minnesota have occurred to people in congregate care facilities. I think it was something like 1200 out of 1600 deaths.

                  Realistically, how many of those do you think can truly be the result of people going to rodeos in Effie or to Cowboy Jacks in downtown Minneapolis? I mean I don't know, I've only had the misfortune of being in Cowboy Jacks once, but I didn't see a lot of what I would call traditional nursing home types in there.

                  Nursing homes have been pretty much locked down (something that I've questioned, as you probably recall). But with that being the case, can we really tie the 1200 deaths in nursing homes to twenty-somethings out trying to get laid?
                  That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post

                    Nursing homes have been pretty much locked down (something that I've questioned, as you probably recall). But with that being the case, can we really tie the 1200 deaths in nursing homes to twenty-somethings out trying to get laid?
                    Are you really trying to make the argument that having a higher R naught level and letting the disease persist in a population does not cause downstream effects like continued high mortality in high risk groups?

                    In the immortal words of Jean Paul Sartre, 'Au revoir, gopher'.

                    Originally posted by burd
                    I look at some people and I just know they do it doggy style. No way they're getting close to my kids.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post

                      But let me ask this.

                      I think I'm right when I report that 75% of the deaths in Minnesota have occurred to people in congregate care facilities. I think it was something like 1200 out of 1600 deaths.

                      Realistically, how many of those do you think can truly be the result of people going to rodeos in Effie or to Cowboy Jacks in downtown Minneapolis? I mean I don't know, I've only had the misfortune of being in Cowboy Jacks once, but I didn't see a lot of what I would call traditional nursing home types in there.

                      Nursing homes have been pretty much locked down (something that I've questioned, as you probably recall). But with that being the case, can we really tie the 1200 deaths in nursing homes to twenty-somethings out trying to get laid?
                      Yes we can. Because healthcare workers have non-work lives too. They need to go to the store sometimes, or have things delivered to them at home. And they come in contact with those 20-somethings "out trying to get laid", who spread COVID to others. And then the healthcare worker brings it into the nursing home. And the store. And wherever else.

                      The idea that 20 year olds contracting COVID won't have larger impacts is asinine.
                      I gotta little bit of smoke and a whole lotta wine...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by leswp1 View Post

                        What I think the assumptions you are making are-
                        People enter NH only if they are unable to care for themselves.
                        People do not want to be there.
                        Many old People are at the very end of their lives, are DNR so is it worth it to intervene?

                        Having rounded Nursing homes early in my career, cared for the elderly for a few decades and now teaching in nursing homes I struggle with a lot of that.

                        Many, many people who are admitted do not belong there. They would be able to stay at home with minimal assistance. They end up admitted because insurance does not pay for assistance in the home. If they try without assistance it leads to falls and other events that are completely preventable. Most developed countries, other than our backwater one, provide for this assistance and keep people in their homes way longer and cheaper. We are stupid, let people get in big trouble and then admit them to an expensive place and then they can't go home because insurance won't pay for help.

                        Not everyone doesn't want to be there. Some people self admit or are admitted after a fall and decide to stay because they have no assistance at home (for stuff like meals, organizing meds, etc). Again, minimal assistance would probably keep them in their home safely but in our country makes this nigh impossible (all sorts of research showing people are better off and cheaper to have at home but insurance doesn't cover it. That is the only reason they are in house rather than at home.)

                        There are many, many people who are not DNR. They have all sorts of reasons- religion, still being fairly active and healthy, belief they will get better or will find a way to get assistance to go home. More than half my patients felt it was an affront to God and there were plenty more who didn't think it was time to decide that yet. I would say that less than 10% of the people in the nursing homes where I have been are in a state of waiting to die .

                        I am really confused with the last part- we need to look at societal costs of our preventative measures, the extent to which those preventative measures contribute to other risk factors like poverty and suicide, and balance it against the 25% of the people victimized by the disease who are not at the very end of their lives. If I'm 95 and have maybe months to live anyway, is it worth it to put millions on soup lines to make sure I get those last few months?
                        It looks like you are making the assumption that patients get the full court press to the detriment of others in society. This would be true if we had a system that was responsible for caring for all of us. We do not. Our system is profit/insurance based. There is plenty of money if we were not to rely on insurance companies who must turn a profit for their shareholders.

                        Spent a couple of decades discussing level of care with patients. Recommendation for screening and treatment is tailored to the patient and takes into consideration whether it is likely to be beneficial for that patient. Some insurances impede good medicine using age as a parameter rather than the state of the patient, require tests that might not be appropriate or decline to pay depending on plan.

                        If I am 95...is it worth it to be sure if I get those last few months? Sounds great. Who decides how long the person has- older people regularly defy logic for surviving and doing fairly OK. Dad les is 89 and has multiple co-morbidities. He can wear out my 24 yr old son who runs marathons. I am pretty sure he would be willing to whoop a55 if he saw that while telling you 'Semper Fi!'

                        Beyond all that I find it kind of disgusting how willing our culture is to dismiss the olds as a waste of resources. What we have was built by their efforts. Most of them have paid in for yrs. When they no longer have the ability to pay in we throw them away.
                        I disagree with this. My 93 year old aunt can get ****ed. I want to drink in a bar.


                        (kidding of course)
                        (I love this post and agree fully)
                        I gotta little bit of smoke and a whole lotta wine...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by WisconsinWildcard View Post

                          Are you really trying to make the argument that having a higher R naught level and letting the disease persist in a population does not cause downstream effects like continued high mortality in high risk groups?
                          I'm not claiming there is zero effect. However, one of the things that I think you are seeing is that the high risk groups are doing a much better job of protecting themselves (or being protected, if in a congregate care setting) than early on in the pandemic. I think that's part of the reason why in April we saw 35,000 cases per day, with deaths between 2500 and 3000, whereas now we see twice as many daily cases but half as many daily deaths.
                          That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

                          Comment


                          • Who knew Hovey was such a sociopathic dikhead?
                            What kind of cheese are you planning to put on top?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post

                              I do remember my friend asking me that, but I don't remember my specific post about it. I assume you or rufus have it saved somewhere and are ready to trot it out at a moments notice.

                              What was my number? I don't think it was the 20,000 figure because I think that was my guess on the deaths.

                              I have just always thought that the media, and a lot of people here, lose track of scale.

                              What if CNN each night started with, "OMG, 8000 people died in the US again today. What is that, 12,000 days in a row?"

                              I think I remember reading somewhere that something like 60 million people die each year in the world. My response was something like, "***, 60 million people?!?!" It's an incomprehensible number.

                              1800 people died of heart disease in the US yesterday. And the day before. And the day before that, and so on.

                              Yeah, it's all tragic when people die. It sucks when it's a loved one or a friend. But a little perspective is useful, too. I don't suggest that we all go cower in Trump's bunker because death is stalking us.
                              Should we start publishing daily gun deaths on the evening news? These would be preventable deaths if we were to regulate guns like we do cars and airplanes. Had you used this in your list of examples with me I would have had to concede the point ;-)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post

                                But let me ask this.

                                I think I'm right when I report that 75% of the deaths in Minnesota have occurred to people in congregate care facilities. I think it was something like 1200 out of 1600 deaths.

                                Realistically, how many of those do you think can truly be the result of people going to rodeos in Effie or to Cowboy Jacks in downtown Minneapolis? I mean I don't know, I've only had the misfortune of being in Cowboy Jacks once, but I didn't see a lot of what I would call traditional nursing home types in there.

                                Nursing homes have been pretty much locked down (something that I've questioned, as you probably recall). But with that being the case, can we really tie the 1200 deaths in nursing homes to twenty-somethings out trying to get laid?
                                Viruses don't get to places on their own. They take a human being who is infected to get in there.

                                Which means they come from a person, who got it from a person, who got it from a person. Which means that it's VERY possible that the person got it while at a bar trying to get laid.

                                Do you REALLY think that all of the employees that work in a nursing home are going to directly risk the people they work for? I find that unreasonable. So it's more likely that someone they interact with was not careful or that a visitor and their chain was not careful.

                                Which is to say that there are more than enough holes in the "personal responsibility" line that it's not effective enough. Mask laws, separation laws, and possibly shelter in place laws are needed because people can not be responsible on a population basis.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X