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  • #841
    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    Originally posted by jerphisch View Post
    Let's chalk it up to you being in high school and a moron

    The evidence was next to nothing, the rhetoric totally justified it. Kind of like anything Trump wants to do. The AHCA is amazing coverage for all. The wall will be beautiful and Mexico will pay for it...I could go on. Iraq played no role in 9/11, and Sadam actually kept terrorists out of Iraq. Pretty much anyone outside of the administration would tell you there were no WMDs, yet the Ds were still too afraid of being called un-American to vote their conscience.
    MOST politicians won't vote their conscience. They'll vote party lines.
    Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
    Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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    • #842
      Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

      Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
      MOST politicians won't vote their conscience. They'll vote party lines.
      The party line was "We're spineless."

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      • #843
        Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

        Originally posted by jerphisch View Post
        The party line was "We're spineless."
        My point is, don't blame the Dems for voting as such. Both parties do this all the time.
        Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
        Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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        • #844
          Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

          Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
          My point is, don't blame the Dems for voting as such. Both parties do this all the time.
          And your point is wrong in this case. The Dems caved to pressure from the right, not from their own constituency. You tell me the last time you saw the Rs cave to pressure from the left.

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          • #845
            Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

            Originally posted by jerphisch View Post
            And your point is wrong in this case. The Dems caved to pressure from the right, not from their own constituency. You tell me the last time you saw the Rs cave to pressure from the left.
            I never said that. I said that parties will vote their party's lines, even if they disagree with those lines.
            Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
            Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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            • #846
              Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

              Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
              I think you're way overplaying the Iraq war angle. It could have been because I was still in high school and a moron, but the evidence was fairly compelling at the time. Again, young and dumb.

              Obviously now we know it completely destabilized the Middle East. But back then it wasn't so obvious. I remember Syria being somewhat of a destination for a few friends in high school going on vacation.

              He war hadn't turned ugly in time for the 2004 election. I voted for Boring McWhateverface, but it wasn't a choice like 2016 where only a moron couldn't see Trump playing out like he has.

              I'll chalk it up to being young, but Bush didn't induce derangement until much later.
              Yeah you were young and a moron. There was no evidence they made it all up. They kept trying to prove they were right after the fact and even that failed.
              "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
              -aparch

              "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
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              Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
              -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

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              • #847
                Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

                Originally posted by jerphisch View Post
                Let's chalk it up to you being in high school and a moron

                The evidence was next to nothing, the rhetoric totally justified it. Kind of like anything Trump wants to do. The AHCA is amazing coverage for all. The wall will be beautiful and Mexico will pay for it...I could go on. Iraq played no role in 9/11, and Sadam actually kept terrorists out of Iraq. Pretty much anyone outside of the administration would tell you there were no WMDs, yet the Ds were still too afraid of being called un-American to vote their conscience.
                In March 2003, support for that lousy war was a little over 70%. The Democrats in Congress were voting the way their constituents wanted them to vote. By the time the election rolled around some 20 months later, support was still around 50%, just a few points lower than that, likely. And it wasn't until after the 2004 elections that the news about the fraudulent evidence of WMDs had really started to hit home the average American.
                "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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                • #848
                  Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

                  Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                  In March 2003, support for that lousy war was a little over 70%. The Democrats in Congress were voting the way their constituents wanted them to vote. By the time the election rolled around some 20 months later, support was still around 50%, just a few points lower than that, likely. And it wasn't until after the 2004 elections that the news about the fraudulent evidence of WMDs had really started to hit home the average American.
                  And that is part of my earlier point about confirmation bias. The anger and passion immediately after 9/11/01 was through the roof, a perfect environment for those wanting to take advantage. To have support for the Iraq war at only 50% only 3 years later is pretty remarkable and an indication of how evident it was that invading was a bad, bad decision. People had to walk back a long ways to acknowledge that it was a serious blunder. That solid core on the right can still rationalize it.

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                  • #849
                    Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                    I think you're way overplaying the Iraq war angle. It could have been because I was still in high school and a moron, but the evidence was fairly compelling at the time. Again, young and dumb
                    I was in college at the time. We had massive arguments about it in a political forum on our schools FirstClass system. It seemed only a few righties thought the evidence was a slam dunk and supported the invasion (basically members of the College Republicans. One of these guys ended up being CEO of some stupid "free market think tank". I don't remember anyone with a fully functioning brain thinking this was a good idea.

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                    • #850
                      Originally posted by BassAle View Post
                      I was in college at the time. We had massive arguments about it in a political forum on our schools FirstClass system. It seemed only a few righties thought the evidence was a slam dunk and supported the invasion (basically members of the College Republicans. One of these guys ended up being CEO of some stupid "free market think tank". I don't remember anyone with a fully functioning brain thinking this was a good idea.
                      The planning and execution were fine. The endgame got an F of massive proportions.

                      Democracy works in a few places. The rest - give them a benevolent despot. Most won't care who is running the country as long as they have full bellies and have a decent standard of living.

                      Political opposition is fine as long as they realize tbeir place. Co-op a few of tbeir ideas, but arrest the lunatics and keep the moderates and sloths in charge.
                      CCT '77 & '78
                      4 kids
                      8 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18, TJL 1/22, BRL 6/23, NDL 2/24)
                      2 granddaughters (EML 4/18, LCL 5/20)

                      ?€Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.?€
                      - Benjamin Franklin

                      Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                      I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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                      • #851
                        Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

                        Originally posted by joecct View Post
                        The planning and execution were fine. The endgame got an F of massive proportions.

                        Democracy works in a few places. The rest - give them a benevolent despot. Most won't care who is running the country as long as they have full bellies and have a decent standard of living.

                        Political opposition is fine as long as they realize tbeir place. Co-op a few of tbeir ideas, but arrest the lunatics and keep the moderates and sloths in charge.
                        The endgame got an F for all the reasons Cheney said it would when Bush I chose not to invade. If you include the decision to invade as part of what you describe as "fine," I have to wonder. (And I don't think you do, but it is unclear)

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                        • #852
                          Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

                          Originally posted by joecct View Post
                          The planning and execution were fine. The endgame got an F of massive proportions.
                          Only if you exclude "having a good reason" as part of the planning process. I was in college, and even I knew the rationale for going in was bogus. It wasn't about WMD, it wasn't about oil, it was W trying to avenge Daddy.

                          Comment

                          • #853
                            Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

                            Originally posted by jerphisch View Post
                            Let's chalk it up to you being in high school and a moron

                            The evidence was next to nothing, the rhetoric totally justified it. Kind of like anything Trump wants to do. The AHCA is amazing coverage for all. The wall will be beautiful and Mexico will pay for it...I could go on. Iraq played no role in 9/11, and Sadam actually kept terrorists out of Iraq. Pretty much anyone outside of the administration would tell you there were no WMDs, yet the Ds were still too afraid of being called un-American to vote their conscience.
                            Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                            Yeah you were young and a moron. There was no evidence they made it all up. They kept trying to prove they were right after the fact and even that failed.
                            Fair enough. I just vaguely remember that the real anti war pressure didn't ramp up until after the election.

                            Originally posted by jerphisch View Post
                            And your point is wrong in this case. The Dems caved to pressure from the right, not from their own constituency. You tell me the last time you saw the Rs cave to pressure from the left.
                            This is a really good point.
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                            • #854
                              Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

                              We made that catastrophic decision because the powers that be took advantage of anger and fear. Nobody takes advantage of anger, ignorance, and fear like the people steering Good Ship GOP, and nobody allows themselves to be manipulated through anger, ignorance, and fear like those poor souls in the solid red states whose lives continue to get worse as a result.

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                              • #855
                                Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

                                Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                                In March 2003, support for that lousy war was a little over 70%. The Democrats in Congress were voting the way their constituents wanted them to vote. By the time the election rolled around some 20 months later, support was still around 50%, just a few points lower than that, likely. And it wasn't until after the 2004 elections that the news about the fraudulent evidence of WMDs had really started to hit home the average American.
                                Support was high...evidence was lacking though
                                "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                                -aparch

                                "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                                -INCH

                                Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
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