Gender Studies I

[unofan]

That makes no sense at all, even for an engineer.

You guys please just stick to fixing things.

Men's sports are the open division: anyone can compete in them if they're strong/fast/able enough. Women's sports are not, they're limited. For good reason. But apparently those reasons are just social fictions.

Its like over-40 rec leagues. Nothing prevents a 45-year old from playing in the open league with the 20- somethings, but the 20-something can't play in the over-40 league.

[MissThundercat]

When we play, we usually suck. When we're good, we're accused of cheating. We can't win.

[MissThundercat]

Men's sports are the open division: anyone can compete in them if they're strong/fast/able enough. Women's sports are not, they're limited. For good reason. But apparently those reasons are just social fictions.

Its like over-40 rec leagues. Nothing prevents a 45-year old from playing in the open league with the 20- somethings, but the 20-something can't play in the over-40 league.

Sources. Data. Hard evidence. You have none. But you wish to parrot the same transphobic nonsense as Tulsi. What's next, genital inspections for my community before we dare try and take the field?

[unofan]

What's the difference?

That's funny coming from a defense contractor.

[RaceBoarder]

When we play, we usually suck. When we're good, we're accused of cheating. We can't win.

What is the Qualification standard for a Man to qualify for the 400m Outdoor State Final according to the MHSAA? What is the qualification for the Woman's 400m?

Why are there two different standards if everyone is "equal"?

[unofan]

Sources. Data. Hard evidence. You have none.

You're a former distance runner, Amber. Why is a women's qualifying time for Boston slower than the men's for the same age group? Why do the women's elite go first to avoid them drafting off the male elites?

[MissThundercat]

And even if various state high school athletic associations set up standards like the IOC and Crossfit have on trans athletes, you'd still be throwing a fit on how we're bigger, stronger, and have more facial hair. I've seen this game before. You'd rather we not compete. Also, sweetie, the Boston Marathon is ahead of the curve and allows trans athletes to compete, pending lab work and a couple other things. When that decision came through, a whole lot of people cried in their morning oatmeal, saying the exact same things you're saying now.

[dxmnkd316]

And even if various state high school athletic associations set up standards like the IOC and Crossfit have on trans athletes, you'd still be throwing a fit on how we're bigger, stronger, and have more facial hair. I've seen this game before. You'd rather we not compete. Also, sweetie, the Boston Marathon is ahead of the curve and allows trans athletes to compete, pending lab work and a couple other things. When that decision came through, a whole lot of people cried in their morning oatmeal, saying the exact same things you're saying now.

Pretty sure he was clear about lab work earlier.

[unofan]

You'd rather we not compete.

I don't have a dog in this fight since I have a Y chromosome. Whether you compete or not in the women's division literally has no bearing on me.

Also, sweetie, the Boston Marathon is ahead of the curve and allows trans athletes to compete, pending lab work and a couple other things.

And if you actually read what I've posted in this whole thread rather than what you think I'm saying, I've been strictly talking about pre-transition athletes that still have their full testosterone levels, darlin'.

[Kepler]

I'll pose the same question to you as I did to MissT:

Why are the qualifying standards for Women significantly less than Men in Track & Field (at all levels, but specifically looking at the High School level)? I mean, gender is just a social construct right? This is basically saying that Person A needs to meet one standard, but Person B needs to meet another...

You completely misread my post about social constructs. I'm sorry (sincerely) it was opaque, let me try again.

Human identity is the issue, and that isn't a social construct, it's a reality. People live that and understand it and express it.

All the rest of this stuff -- qualifying standards, competition rules, sports as games themselves -- is a bunch of arbitrary stuff we overly smart apes came up with to amuse ourselves while we weren't masturbating, social grooming lice, or murdering each other. It's cultural and completely inside our skulls, like law, aesthetics, and Floor is Lava. It isn't anything real outside us.

Do not let the wiggly lines inside our heads harm real, actual people. The people are what matter. The other stuff is tools we created to help people -- it's not otherwise important.

[Kepler]

That's funny coming from a defense contractor.

I think you know me well enough to know just how wide of the mark that was if you were trying to embarrass me. I help murder innocent people. Rhetorical casuistry is not high on my anxiety list.

In all honesty: I somehow conducted that entire exchange as if you were one of our engineers. Your comments were so reductionist and shortsighted I just assumed it could not be someone with a liberal arts or humanities background.

The Times regrets the error.

[unofan]

I think you know me well enough to know just how wide of the mark that was if you were trying to embarrass me. I help murder innocent people. Rhetorical casuistry is not high on my anxiety list.

In all honesty: I somehow conducted that entire exchange as if you were one of our engineers. Your comments were so reductionist and shortsighted I just assumed it could not be someone with a liberal arts or humanities background.

The Times regrets the error.

My pardons, comrade. You're the only truly enlightened person on this board and the rest of us are just ignorant plebs who simply can't understand the wisdom being imparted.

Sure all sports are constructs meant to provide enjoyment and competition. But the rules are there to ensure the competition is fair within those constructs. That often means limiting certain competitions by age groups or gender or weight class skilled flights to ensure it's actually competitive. You wouldn't put an u8 soccer team up against an u16 team, for instance, right?

You're telling me you can't understand why people who compete in the women's division might find it similarly unfair to have to now compete against someone who is genetically male and has not started any hormone therapy or undergone any surgery, and therefore still has all the physical advantages that comes with their Y chromosome?

[Jeb2020]

I think you know me well enough to know just how wide of the mark that was if you were trying to embarrass me. I help murder innocent people. Rhetorical casuistry is not high on my anxiety list.

In all honesty: I somehow conducted that entire exchange as if you were one of our engineers. Your comments were so reductionist and shortsighted I just assumed it could not be someone with a liberal arts or humanities background.

The Times regrets the error.

Man (no pun intended) if you are really a Defense Contractor that is really rich with all your spouting off about Facism. Keep up the good work.

[Jeb2020]

Some ideas to consider.

• Throw away Male/Female divisions, best of the best.
• Create a Trans league.
  • Men's leagues remain open, if you can hack it you can make the team.

[unofan]

Kep, us debating this is also about as useful as a Republican congressional panel on abortion. I'd ask you to discuss this with Dr. Mrs. if you haven't already, because I'm guessing she has a competitive streak given that she has a doctorate. While it's possible she may agree with you, I think it's also possible she may not.

I know my opinion has been informed by my wife's, who is generally far more liberal than myself