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  • Re: Gender Studies I

    Originally posted by geezer View Post
    Writing is one of the best things for anyone to do, and you have so much of value to say. Keep it up! My usual and, I think, best advice is the same we've all been getting since junior high: Show, don't tell. Illustrate (paint a picture of) the truth instead of spelling it out. It makes for a more compelling story.
    As an example, consider a replacement of:
    "She was an atheist, and with Evangelicals wanting to do away with freedom of religion, she couldn’t go out in public without someone asking her why she didn’t go to church. She couldn’t go out in public without someone calling her a sinner." etc...
    with something like:
    "Just as she stepped off the front stoop, a tall bearded man whose neck was weighed down by a huge polished chrome cross nearly knocked her down. 'Watch it, *****,' he snarled."
    This way your story is developing while you're also filling in the background you want to get across.
    Yeah, but there's a fine line. Do too much of your latter example, and your villain starts to look cartoonish.

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    • Re: Gender Studies I

      Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
      Yeah, but there's a fine line. Do too much of your latter example, and your villain starts to look cartoonish.
      Everything's in first draft right now, anyway. And this is something I'm watching against. I don't want to set up my Evangelical president as the equivalent of Mojo Jojo. If anything, I want him to mirror Jerry Falwell Jr, Franklin Graham, and Tony Perkins.
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      • Re: Gender Studies I

        Originally posted by MissThundercat View Post
        Everything's in first draft right now, anyway. And this is something I'm watching against. I don't want to set up my Evangelical president as the equivalent of Mojo Jojo. If anything, I want him to mirror Jerry Falwell Jr, Franklin Graham, and Tony Perkins.
        Pence.

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        • Re: Gender Studies I

          Originally posted by JF_Gophers View Post
          No words for this...

          Woman’s love for a chandelier deemed ‘not a sexual orientation’

          https://flip.it/2srtRx
          Originally posted by Kepler View Post
          The odds of two posts about a story like this back-to-back are hilariously low.
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          • Re: Gender Studies I

            The best villains are usually the ones who either don't know or refuse to admit they're the baddies. Think Lawful Evil - Claude Frollo, Inspector Javert, Dolores Umbridge, Carrie's mother, and yes, Mike Pence.

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            • Re: Gender Studies I

              Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
              The best villains are usually the ones who either don't know or refuse to admit they're the baddies. Think Lawful Evil - Claude Frollo, Inspector Javert, Dolores Umbridge, Carrie's mother, and yes, Mike Pence.
              They know. They refuse to acknowledge.

              Best villians, fictitious or not: the ones that know they are bad, don't care, and are smart enough to do their thing, for at least a while.
              Joker, Dahmer, Buffalo Bill/Lecter, Ed Gein, Jack The Ripper, etc.
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              • Re: Gender Studies I

                Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
                The best villains are usually the ones who either don't know or refuse to admit they're the baddies.
                "A villain is just a hero in the wrong story."

                Star Trek TOS exemplified this beautifully in one of its best episodes, "The Conscience of the King," written by the lamentably underrated Barry Trivers.

                I love multi-dimensional villains who give a compelling reason for their actions. They are wrong, perhaps lethally, but they are interestingly wrong; often they are better people than the plodding unimaginative muscle head hero who thwarts them -- they are just tragically flawed.
                Last edited by Kepler; 04-15-2020, 06:15 PM.
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                • Re: Gender Studies I

                  Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                  "A villain is just a hero in the wrong story."

                  Star Trek TOS exemplified this beautifully in one of its best episodes, "The Conscience of the King," written by the lamentably underrated Barry Trivers.

                  I love multi-dimensional villains who give compelling reason for their actions. They are wrong, perhaps lethally, but they are interestingly wrong; often they are better people than the plodding unimaginative muscle head hero who thwarts them -- they are just tragically flawed.
                  I'm sure most of it is just personal taste, but I've always liked stories where I wasn't sure whether I was rooting for the villain or not.
                  That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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                  • Re: Gender Studies I

                    Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                    I'm sure most of it is just personal taste, but I've always liked stories where I wasn't sure whether I was rooting for the villain or not.
                    Same here.

                    But I was rooting for Thanos. His only mistake was thinking small.
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                    • Re: Gender Studies I

                      I don't think that it's needed to be "rooting for" an antagonist, but you have to understand their motives.

                      Kep mentioned Thanos, but another villain in the MCU that really shows this is Daredevil's Wilson Fisk (The best of the MCU in this category). You learn about his character in depth. From an outside perspective, his goals are obviously nefarious, but when you step into his shoes, you can totally relate to why he makes each and every move he does. It's a balance of those perspectives that creates the compelling narrative. "You don't have to agree, but you can understand it" is how I would summarize this.
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                      • Re: Gender Studies I

                        Originally posted by RaceBoarder View Post
                        I don't think that it's needed to be "rooting for" an antagonist, but you have to understand their motives.

                        Kep mentioned Thanos, but another villain in the MCU that really shows this is Daredevil's Wilson Fisk (The best of the MCU in this category). You learn about his character in depth. From an outside perspective, his goals are obviously nefarious, but when you step into his shoes, you can totally relate to why he makes each and every move he does. It's a balance of those perspectives that creates the compelling narrative. "You don't have to agree, but you can understand it" is how I would summarize this.
                        Keep it simple. Look at organized crime, specifically the old school organizations. La Cosa Nostra. They were the police for the bad guys, even though LCN were a bunch of bad guys.

                        It's a different way of working things out, and illegal compared to normal society, but there was a moral standard. There were rules.
                        Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
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                        • Re: Gender Studies I

                          Originally posted by The Rube View Post
                          It's a different way of working things out, and illegal compared to normal society, but there was a moral standard. There were rules.
                          Not really, though. The whole idea that mobsters have a code is mostly bunk for selling books and movies. They're extortionists and killers, and they prey within their community as much as on others.

                          Political terrorists are a different story: they provide social support to rally support to The Cause. But crooks are just crooks, even if they dress sharp. I grew up with these people. F-ck em all.
                          Last edited by Kepler; 04-15-2020, 11:17 PM.
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                          • Re: Gender Studies I

                            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                            Not really, though. The whole idea that mobsters have a code is mostly bunk for selling books and movies. They're extortionists and killers, and they prey within their community as much as on others.

                            Political terrorists are a different story: they provide social support to rally support to The Cause. But crooks are just crooks, even if they dress sharp. I grew up with these people. F-ck em all.
                            Don't get me wrong. They are evil. They just adhere to different rules.Are they moral rules, as we see them? Nope.
                            Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
                            Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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                            • Re: Gender Studies I

                              Originally posted by The Rube View Post
                              Keep it simple. Look at organized crime, specifically the old school organizations. La Cosa Nostra. They were the police for the bad guys, even though LCN were a bunch of bad guys.

                              It's a different way of working things out, and illegal compared to normal society, but there was a moral standard. There were rules.
                              Yes and no. I'm just thinking from a narrative perspective. Fisk was fresh in my mind because I'm doing a rewatch of Daredevil Season 1 right now and he is a textbook example of what I'm describing.

                              You can have a gangster that is a "generic" villain very easily. Where the talent comes in is when the author is able to paint the picture on both sides of the line. Being able to show the "why" in reference to how they turned to the criminal lifestyle. Being able to show why the mob was the lone bright light in an otherwise dark neighborhood in the eyes of the common residents. You need to be able to understand and relate to the character's choices even though they may not be ones that you would personally make.

                              In Amber's case, do something like dig into reasons why the evangelical turned to religion. Show, don't tell why they want to please the Being in the Sky. Do this to where it's not a blind leap at any point along the way when the reader stops to think about that character's actions. That's where the story gets it's depth because you can debate the actions in question. Think of two people debating whether they are looking at a 6 or 9 when they are standing on opposite sides of the drawing.
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                              Go Cats!!! GO BLACKHAWKS!

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                              • Re: Gender Studies I

                                I recently rewatched DD also. You don't have to agree with it, just understand the reasoning. I understood where Fisk was coming from. I understand where LCN was coming from.

                                Oddly, I understand where the cartels are coming from, but that is just on another level.

                                Re-reading "Red Mafiya" and there is a quote in there from a Genovese (IIRC) informant: We Italians? We'll kill you. But the Russians, they'll kill your whole family. They're crazy."

                                Think about that line of thinking.

                                And THEN think: the cartels, they'll kill anyone you've ever known.
                                Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
                                Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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