Gender Studies I

[dxmnkd316]

So, you’re saying that trans females aren’t actually female, and therefore they don’t viably represent females everywhere if they win?
Again, how often is this happening, this being trans women competing in women’s sports that makes it inherently more dangerous for the females at birth competition? And is it worth legislating such a minuscule issue? Lia Thomas and Caitlyn Jenner are the only examples I ever see used in these conversations. No doubt there are more, but the fact we remember Lia and Caitlyn is because they’re rare stories, not the norm.

They're rare because they're elite athletes and trans. That's lightning striking twice simultaneously from two different storms. I don't think rarity is the issue here.

The one example that keeps coming back for me is Oscar pistorius. I don't think he should have been able to compete at the Olympics. Full stop. He may not have won or come close, but at some point the mechanics become too advantageous. What then? In both cases we're talking about elite athletes who had something about their bodies changed.

I still think it should be up to every sport to self-govern, not legislatures. The governing bodies understand their sports beat and if they decide there is a compelling reason to not allow trans women to compete in the women's leagues, I guess I'm not going to raise a stink. For the most part. There will always be sports run by chuds and I say, there are plenty of other sports more welcoming.

For amateurs, I say it's 100% a safety issue that can be decided case-by-case. There have been instances where kids are too big to play at certain levels and I have no problem having those kids move up a class in a sort of modified way similar to wrestling.

[dxmnkd316]

I did some research of my own today to see if I could develop a better understanding of this issue.

The estimated percentage of trans athletes nationwide is 0.44. That's 0.0044.

Parents in Connecticut confessed they didn't care about the trans athletes who weren't winning, just the ones who were (Miller and Yearwood).

The state lawmakers who sponsored acts such as "Save Women's Sports" could only cite Connecticut for a reason why, could not establish a pattern of dominance in their state, could not estimate how many trans athletes were in their state, or simply echoed statements written by the Alliance Defending Freedom, which is classified as an anti-LGBTQ hate group. The ADF is responsible for several pieces of anti-trans pieces of legislation and has helped spread "trans panic."

When trans HS student athletes compose ~0.0044 of the student athlete population, blanket bans and restrictions aren't really necessary and look like a "solution in search of a problem." I feel the same way about increased restrictions and testing on trans athletes at the NCAA and Olympic levels, which also make up a microscopic portion of those athletes.

I also don't believe in setting any policies based on "what if," only "what is." Without an established clear pattern of dominance in competition by trans athletes, policies set on restricting them from playing is basically hiding behind a wall from an enemy that doesn't really exist.

And while I don't believe RB, uno, or Eric are bad people, I simply disagree with their opinions.

I don't find the rarity argument compelling. If a million people run in a race, the winner is a single person. Rarity is the entire foundation of competitive sport.

For amateurs, whatever. Every now and then our soccer team gets crushed by like eight goals (or worse) in our 35+ league. These teams usually have D1 caliber women playing and guys who are all like 35.0001 years old compared to our team average of around 42-45. We suck it up, act like adults, and realize it ain't the World Cup.

Women in our league are allowed to play as young as 30 as long as they didn't actually play D1. If a 32yo trans woman wanted to play in the league, I think the vast vast vast vast majority of the players would be fine with it and drown out the knuckledraggers.

So my point is that league classification matters. Amateurs can suck it up while anything above that can decide for themselves.

[unofan]

For amateurs, whatever. Every now and then our soccer team gets crushed by like eight goals (or worse) in our 35+ league. These teams usually have D1 caliber women playing and guys who are all like 35.0001 years old compared to our team average of around 42-45. We suck it up, act like adults, and realize it ain't the World Cup.

But you still grumble about it in the locker room afterward over beer, and you wonder how the league commissioner's team always winds up with the new young gun in the league every year...

Plus there is the rare ringer that everyone else agrees does need to be booted, especially if he's sandbagging and playing three levels too low. Because that will lead to issues either on or off the field. Think that's happened about 2 or 3 times in the 20 years I've been playing in beer leagues.

[dxmnkd316]

But you still grumble about it in the locker room afterward over beer, and you wonder how the league commissioner's team always winds up with the new young gun in the league every year...

Plus there is the rare ringer that everyone else agrees does need to be booted, especially if he's sandbagging and playing three levels too low. Because that will lead to issues either on or off the field. Think that's happened about 2 or 3 times in the 20 years I've been playing in beer leagues.

That's probably a fair assessment. I once played against a guy who was invited to try out for a couple MLS teams while he was in our league*. Even him playing at 25% was... insane. I didn't try to make saves against him, I tried to survive.

Anyways. Yeah, there has been or or two of them in our 35+ league and we gripe. But at the end of the day when the beer can is empty, we pretty much just roll our eyes and wonder what he gets out of shooting fish in a barrel.


* this was an open co-rec indoor league, not the 35+ corec.

[psych]

I don't find the rarity argument compelling. If a million people run in a race, the winner is a single person. Rarity is the entire foundation of competitive sport.

For amateurs, whatever. Every now and then our soccer team gets crushed by like eight goals (or worse) in our 35+ league. These teams usually have D1 caliber women playing and guys who are all like 35.0001 years old compared to our team average of around 42-45. We suck it up, act like adults, and realize it ain't the World Cup.

Women in our league are allowed to play as young as 30 as long as they didn't actually play D1. If a 32yo trans woman wanted to play in the league, I think the vast vast vast vast majority of the players would be fine with it and drown out the knuckledraggers.

So my point is that league classification matters. Amateurs can suck it up while anything above that can decide for themselves.

In your hypothetical scenario of 1,000,000 racers, only 2,121 of them would be trans females. My crude math yesterday placed around five trans students in each U.S. high school, both public and private. My entire point was that this event (trans females beating cis females in sports) almost never happens, because trans females are rare, trans female athletes are rarer, and elite trans female athletes are the rarest. It's something that shouldn't even be noticed as it so rarely occurs, along the same lines of trans females pretending to be female so they can enter public restrooms and prey on cis females. As rare as voter fraud, IMO. I have to say I haven't seen a single post about trans males and their competitive edge/safety concerns against cis males. It makes me think most of the disagreement lies in the competitiveness factor, more so than the safety factor, of trans athletes competing in sports.
That all said, my main argument is that trans people have gone through enough in life, why put up another exclusionary barrier? They attempt suicide at astronomical rates compared to the rest of us, due in no small part to the ridiculous amount of stress they experience on a daily basis. The competitiveness/safety factors are far outweighed by the inclusion and acceptance of one of the most marginalized groups in our country.

[dxmnkd316]

In your hypothetical scenario of 1,000,000 racers, only 2,121 of them would be trans females. My crude math yesterday placed around five trans students in each U.S. high school, both public and private. My entire point was that this event (trans females beating cis females in sports) almost never happens, because trans females are rare, trans female athletes are rarer, and elite trans female athletes are the rarest. It's something that shouldn't even be noticed as it so rarely occurs, along the same lines of trans females pretending to be female so they can enter public restrooms and prey on cis females. As rare as voter fraud, IMO. I have to say I haven't seen a single post about trans males and their competitive edge/safety concerns against cis males. It makes me think most of the disagreement lies in the competitiveness factor, more so than the safety factor, of trans athletes competing in sports.
That all said, my main argument is that trans people have gone through enough in life, why put up another exclusionary barrier? They attempt suicide at astronomical rates compared to the rest of us, due in no small part to the ridiculous amount of stress they experience on a daily basis. The competitiveness/safety factors are far outweighed by the inclusion and acceptance of one of the most marginalized groups in our country.

Again. I don't find "it's rare" to be a compelling argument. It will become less rare. Necessarily. So we should have a discussion about it and have some guidelines in place. And my proposed solution is to let the governing bodies of each sport decide for themselves.

[psych]

Again. I don't find "it's rare" to be a compelling argument. It will become less rare. Necessarily. So we should have a discussion about it and have some guidelines in place. And my proposed solution is to let the governing bodies of each sport decide for themselves.

What's going to make a naturally occurring phenomenon become less rare? Also, aren't there already guidelines in place by the NCAA and IOC for trans athletes? So, your guidelines would pertain to high school athletics? Would that mean the state's high school athletic association would decide who gets to compete and who doesn't? I'm sure that would lead to the "stupid f-cking red states" type posts when the entire South rules against allowing trans females to compete, because again, no one seems to be too up-in-arms about trans males competing against cis males.

Edit: We're having the discussion. I don't think there should be any guidelines in place because it's almost never a situation that requires intervention, just like voter fraud. It's so rare, and will continue to be that way, since trans people are born trans, and I don't see that naturally occurring number increasing astronomically. And even if it does, what isn't rare is the amount of f-cking sh-t that every trans person experiences in his/her life, so I think that outweighs the paucity of sporting events negatively affected by a trans person's inclusion in them.

[dxmnkd316]

Uh, societal acceptance becoming more common?

hey, great I'm glad there are already guidelines in place by the governing bodies. Don't take my ignorance to them as opposition or trying to argue something else.

[RaceBoarder]

What's going to make a naturally occurring phenomenon become less rare? Also, aren't there already guidelines in place by the NCAA and IOC for trans athletes? So, your guidelines would pertain to high school athletics? Would that mean the state's high school athletic association would decide who gets to compete and who doesn't? I'm sure that would lead to the "stupid f-cking red states" type posts when the entire South rules against allowing trans females to compete, because again, no one seems to be too up-in-arms about trans males competing against cis males.

Edit: We're having the discussion. I don't think there should be any guidelines in place because it's almost never a situation that requires intervention, just like voter fraud. It's so rare, and will continue to be that way, since trans people are born trans, and I don't see that naturally occurring number increasing astronomically. And even if it does, what isn't rare is the amount of f-cking sh-t that every trans person experiences in his/her life, so I think that outweighs the paucity of sporting events negatively affected by a trans person's inclusion in them.

Just to clarify some stuff: Someone who is a trans-male actually can compete. Women can compete against men. But Men can't compete against Women. This is actually spelled out pretty cleanly in many cases. For example, it's not exactly rare to see a female playing football (no women's equivalent) or baseball (softball is an equal on the women's side). I've seen both multiple times here in IL in games I have worked.

As to the IOC/NCAA standards for trans athletes: They are long, and they are expensive. Basically someone needs to undergo multiple years of HRT. It's just not feasible, as most of your HS athletes are likely to have discovered who they are within the previous 6-12 months. No time for the 2-4 year process required by the IOC/NCAA.

[psych]

Just to clarify some stuff: Someone who is a trans-male actually can compete. Women can compete against men. But Men can't compete against Women. This is actually spelled out pretty cleanly in many cases. For example, it's not exactly rare to see a female playing football (no women's equivalent) or baseball (softball is an equal on the women's side). I've seen both multiple times here in IL in games I have worked.

As to the IOC/NCAA standards for trans athletes: They are long, and they are expensive. Basically someone needs to undergo multiple years of HRT. It's just not feasible, as most of your HS athletes are likely to have discovered who they are within the previous 6-12 months. No time for the 2-4 year process required by the IOC/NCAA.

Alright, so, your second paragraph basically means very, very few, trans female athletes can compete in the NCAA or IOC? Like, fewer than with no guidelines/restrictions on trans participation?
Your first paragraph: So, is safety not as important for cis females or trans males competing in male sports? Sounds like we’re more likely to see cis females competing in cis male sports than trans females competing in female sports. So, why don’t we ban cis females or trans females from playing football or hockey or rugby?
Dx, since I’m incapable of quoting more than one post in a reply, increased societal acceptance won’t increase the number of trans people living in the U.S., but it may increase the number of trans people participating in sports. So, of the 2.5 trans females per high school, 2 may compete in sports going forward, rather than 1.5, or 1. Significant increase, but still a tiny, tiny percentage of the overall sports population.

[RaceBoarder]

Alright, so, your second paragraph basically means very, very few, trans female athletes can compete in the NCAA or IOC? Like, fewer than with no guidelines/restrictions on trans participation?
Your first paragraph: So, is safety not as important for cis females or trans males competing in male sports? Sounds like we’re more likely to see cis females competing in cis male sports than trans females competing in female sports. So, why don’t we ban cis females or trans females from playing football or hockey or rugby?
Dx, since I’m incapable of quoting more than one post in a reply, increased societal acceptance won’t increase the number of trans people living in the U.S., but it may increase the number of trans people participating in sports. So, of the 2.5 trans females per high school, 2 may compete in sports going forward, rather than 1.5, or 1. Significant increase, but still a tiny, tiny percentage of the overall sports population.

In the case of Safety, CIS Females "opt in" to playing against males in the cases where they compete in a guys division. A CIS Female doesn't NOT "opt in" to a more dangerous level of competition when competing in a women's division. Again, it's a "one way" scenario.

(And for the record, there was a case in Texas where a Trans-male individual was denied competing in the Boys division at the State wrestling tournament. TX ruled that they only allow individuals to compete in their division based on anatomical gender. The individual had started HRT (adding Testosterone). They easily walked through their CIS competition. )

As far as numbers at "Elite" levels, yes, it is highly structured. This is why I'm more content with Lia at the NCAA's than I am with a HS athlete. Even in her case, her performance fell 5%, but her ranking rose 10%. So even that isn't exactly an even reduction.

[dxmnkd316]

Alright, so, your second paragraph basically means very, very few, trans female athletes can compete in the NCAA or IOC? Like, fewer than with no guidelines/restrictions on trans participation?
Your first paragraph: So, is safety not as important for cis females or trans males competing in male sports? Sounds like we’re more likely to see cis females competing in cis male sports than trans females competing in female sports. So, why don’t we ban cis females or trans females from playing football or hockey or rugby?
Dx, since I’m incapable of quoting more than one post in a reply, increased societal acceptance won’t increase the number of trans people living in the U.S., but it may increase the number of trans people participating in sports. So, of the 2.5 trans females per high school, 2 may compete in sports going forward, rather than 1.5, or 1. Significant increase, but still a tiny, tiny percentage of the overall sports population.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. My point isn't that the number of trans people will increase. It's that more are willing to attempt to live more open lives and push the boundaries of current norms (sorry about the phrasing here, I didn't like it but the best I could do while trying to stay distracted during this dept meeting).

[MissThundercat]

Bear in mind, I'm off this board 23 hours a day. A lot of what I discuss in here is related to what happens in those 23 hours. (So, not in discussions here).

It's also super frustrating to read headlines like "trans beats 14,000 women in London Marathon, volunteers to give medal back," only to dig further and find she finished 6,159th and was bullied and harassed into giving a participation medal back.

It's frustrating to read about parents who "only care about the ones who are winning."

It's frustrating to read about lawmakers who are clueless about this issue and can only repeat statements written by ADF.

It's frustrating to see a near artificial interest in women's weightlifting or swimming because of the presence of a trans woman, then watch that interest disappear without a trans woman's presence. If I asked who Missy Franklin is, 99% of responses would be incorrect. (She is a former world record holder in the 200m backstroke.)

It was frustrating to read comments last year to the effect of "Lia is going to destroy women's swimming." Last year, Lia won the 500 yard in 4:33. Katie Ledecky holds that record at 4:24.

The list goes on.

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Bear in mind, I'm off this board 23 hours a day. A lot of what I discuss in here is related to what happens in those 23 hours. (So, not in discussions here).

It's also super frustrating to read headlines like "trans beats 14,000 women in London Marathon, volunteers to give medal back," only to dig further and find she finished 6,159th and was bullied and harassed into giving a participation medal back.

It's frustrating to read about parents who "only care about the ones who are winning."

It's frustrating to read about lawmakers who are clueless about this issue and can only repeat statements written by ADF.

It's frustrating to see a near artificial interest in women's weightlifting or swimming because of the presence of a trans woman, then watch that interest disappear without a trans woman's presence. If I asked who Missy Franklin is, 99% of responses would be incorrect. (She won the 200m NCAA Championship in 2022.)

It was frustrating to read comments last year to the effect of "Lia is going to destroy women's swimming." Last year, Lia won the 500 yard in 4:33. Katie Ledecky holds that record at 4:24.

The list goes on.

My favorite media hysteria recently was the race where daily fail and others had headlines of “omg trans women places in top 2, third place woman refuses to attend medal ceremony in protest” and when the third place woman was finally contacted, she said “uh I left early because I wanted a beer and some food, what are you talking about”

[MissThundercat]

I remember the hysteria over Laurel Hubbard in 2021.

When she didn't make the medal round, the buzz surrounding women's weightlifting that year immediately died. Laurel returned to NZ and relative obscurity.

Also, Lia Thomas returned to obscurity and also appears to be enjoying a mostly private life.