Gender Studies I

[MissThundercat]

Also, I hear "unfair advantage." Can you provide examples of trans women consistently outperforming cis athletes in competition? Can you provide examples of trans women consistently injuring cis women in competition?

[LynahFan]

Score one for the good guys and gals:

https://dailymontanan.com/2023/06/27...r-entire-suit/

Suck it, derps.

[RaceBoarder]

I'm going to have to assume the financial aspect of all of this isn't your main concern. Personally, I'd say anything provided by MissT trumps financial concerns.

No. But it's the door that is opened. Why have women's sports at all? Women can compete with the men, but men can't compete against women. Why is a one-way street permitted here? As UNO pointed out, Women's and/or Age divisions are designed to keep level playing fields. If you want to delete one, why keep the others?

Also, I hear "unfair advantage." Can you provide examples of trans women consistently outperforming cis athletes in competition? Can you provide examples of trans women consistently injuring cis women in competition?

Sure.

Female times/distances at the high school level are 10-20% slower/shorter than their male counterparts. Are you flat out ignoring the biological differences of a 15-18 year old person who hasn't undergone any HRT or a transition process that is required at the NCAA/Olympic level?

And just because YOU weren't an elite athlete doesn't mean that your personal experience can be applied to people who are elite athletes.

And just to acknowledge you, no, there aren't 100's of examples. But it's a likely scenario if an athletic person who is biologically male accepts themselves as a woman during their HS years.

[psych]

No. But it's the door that is opened. Why have women's sports at all? Women can compete with the men, but men can't compete against women. Why is a one-way street permitted here? As UNO pointed out, Women's and/or Age divisions are designed to keep level playing fields. If you want to delete one, why keep the others?



Sure.

Female times/distances at the high school level are 10-20% slower/shorter than their male counterparts. Are you flat out ignoring the biological differences of a 15-18 year old person who hasn't undergone any HRT or a transition process that is required at the NCAA/Olympic level?

And just because YOU weren't an elite athlete doesn't mean that your personal experience can be applied to people who are elite athletes.

And just to acknowledge you, no, there aren't 100's of examples. But it's a likely scenario if an athletic person who is biologically male accepts themselves as a woman during their HS years.

I guess I see the insidious, persistent emotional distress on what I can only guess is a daily basis for trans individuals as trumping potentially billions of dollars of savings for schools nationwide. “Thanks to you, and you alone in this school, Julie, we eliminated women’s sports and saved $300,000!” “Now, I know you didn’t want that to happen, for a bevy of reasons, but more importantly than everything you’re about to say, is that the school saved $300,000!”
Safety is the best argument I’ve seen, and even that seems flimsy to me, especially due to the rarity of this particular safety argument being an issue in the real-world. Crude math: 26.2 million kids 12-17 living in the U.S. (high-school age)/330,000,000 U.S. population = 7.94% population high-school aged x 1.4 million (self-identified) trans people living in the U.S. = 111,511.51 high-school trans children. We’ll make up the person’s mind and make it 111,512/20,469 public/private high-schools = 5.4 trans kids per school. Out of the average of 1,280 kids in a high school, 5 trans kids are among them. Chances they are all trans female and all play sports, especially ones that involve safety, like hockey, boxing, or rugby? Seems like we’re trying to legislate something that is likely as rare as voter fraud.

[Swansong]

Can we, at least in here, step back a moment and not assume bad faith when posters that we know and generally respect ask questions?

Ericredaxe and raceboarder aren't frothing anti trans *******s. Yes, they are asking the same questions that said frothing *******s are asking. But can we just, in here at least, not assume bad faith? I definitely get MissT's agitation when she's likely bombarded by said frothing *******s, but something about safe spaces here?

Also, Ericredaxe and RB - like I said a few pages ago - you (and I, and all of us) need to understand why people like MissT respond rather negatively to these questions.


Let's discuss. Without snark. Without bad faith.

[Kepler]

Personally, I am not assuming bad faith. But this issue has been out there long enough they are responsible for the fact that the language they use is also used by cynical phobes who want to sea lion and take the p-ss out of both activists and victims.

There is no neutral position in a situation where people are being grievously harmed, and affecting one signals you are either clueless or up to no good.

[psych]

Can we, at least in here, step back a moment and not assume bad faith when posters that we know and generally respect ask questions?

Ericredaxe and raceboarder aren't frothing anti trans *******s. Yes, they are asking the same questions that said frothing *******s are asking. But can we just, in here at least, not assume bad faith? I definitely get MissT's agitation when she's likely bombarded by said frothing *******s, but something about safe spaces here?

Also, Ericredaxe and RB - like I said a few pages ago - you (and I, and all of us) need to understand why people like MissT respond rather negatively to these questions.


Let's discuss. Without snark. Without bad faith.

Plenty of stuff I post here that people disagree with, and vice versa. I don’t think unofan or Raceboarder are terrible people- hell, maybe they are, but this is a message board, and I simply don’t care either way. I just disagree with them on this particular topic.

[unofan]

ETA: put another way, everyone is entitled to participate in voting, but nobody is entitled to have their candidate win. I know you’re a good dude, but this is analogous to what southern Dems were worried about in the 1870’s, “But….if you let black people participate in the vote, my preferred candidates have a lower chance of winning!” Yep, they sure do - and the problem is…..what, exactly?

Except the better analogy to voting is "we created this majority-minority district to ensure that particular minority gets representation, but now we're modifying it in a way that negatively affects them and could eventually remove their ability to be represented again. Sorry."

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Yep... That's totally what happened there Kep.

You're over 50 so you must be Senior 'Splainin then since it's an issue with HS sports...

Nah, old men telling preteen girls that their feelings/thoughts don’t matter, they can be inconvenienced and no one cares is a great way to have rational conversation! Women get **** on all the time, it’s nothing new. But I’d kill to see what happens if men’s or boys sports dare be inconvenienced.

[unofan]

You acknowledged (correctly, so far as I can tell) that nobody is transitioning for competitive reasons, but now you use a LeBron hypothetical to argue for actual exclusion of sincerely transitioned athletes? I don’t see how that adds up.

When it comes to safety, that should be up to the individual athletes to decide - you have to sign a waiver for every sports league, from the NFL down to preschool hopscotch. If you look across the mat and feel that you do not have the physical skills to safely compete against a particular opponent in a particular sport, then you should forfeit that match and live to fight another day.

We're taking hypothetical here, and you brought up the 6'6" basketball player earlier, but whatever. Then let's go back to Caitlin Jenner. Say she transitions 50 years ago, and we'll set aside that track actually has testosterone standards for female athletes such that even a handful of cis-women aren't allowed to compete. Would it have been fair to let her compete in the heptathlon in her prime prior to any HRT or other medical steps along the way?

[psych]

Except the better analogy to voting is "we created this majority-minority district to ensure that particular minority gets representation, but now we're modifying it in a way that negatively affects them and could eventually remove their ability to be represented again. Sorry."

So, you’re saying that trans females aren’t actually female, and therefore they don’t viably represent females everywhere if they win?
Again, how often is this happening, this being trans women competing in women’s sports that makes it inherently more dangerous for the females at birth competition? And is it worth legislating such a minuscule issue? Lia Thomas and Caitlyn Jenner are the only examples I ever see used in these conversations. No doubt there are more, but the fact we remember Lia and Caitlyn is because they’re rare stories, not the norm.

[unofan]

Also, I hear "unfair advantage." Can you provide examples of trans women consistently outperforming cis athletes in competition? Can you provide examples of trans women consistently injuring cis women in competition?

Since you used to run marathons before you got injured and before your transition, just go look at some of your old times and where you placed and then compare that to where that same time would've put you in the women's division in the same race. Even if you wouldn't win, bet you jump up about 10% in the standings. Might've even meant you had a Boston qualifier time.

[MissThundercat]

I did some research of my own today to see if I could develop a better understanding of this issue.

The estimated percentage of trans athletes nationwide is 0.44. That's 0.0044.

Parents in Connecticut confessed they didn't care about the trans athletes who weren't winning, just the ones who were (Miller and Yearwood).

The state lawmakers who sponsored acts such as "Save Women's Sports" could only cite Connecticut for a reason why, could not establish a pattern of dominance in their state, could not estimate how many trans athletes were in their state, or simply echoed statements written by the Alliance Defending Freedom, which is classified as an anti-LGBTQ hate group. The ADF is responsible for several pieces of anti-trans pieces of legislation and has helped spread "trans panic."

When trans HS student athletes compose ~0.0044 of the student athlete population, blanket bans and restrictions aren't really necessary and look like a "solution in search of a problem." I feel the same way about increased restrictions and testing on trans athletes at the NCAA and Olympic levels, which also make up a microscopic portion of those athletes.

I also don't believe in setting any policies based on "what if," only "what is." Without an established clear pattern of dominance in competition by trans athletes, policies set on restricting them from playing is basically hiding behind a wall from an enemy that doesn't really exist.

And while I don't believe RB, uno, or Eric are bad people, I simply disagree with their opinions.

[unofan]

So, you’re saying that trans females aren’t actually female, and therefore they don’t viably represent females everywhere if they win?

I'm saying trans females who are pre-HRT have all the physical advantages of men and asking cis-women to be thrilled that they may now have to compete against them is myopic. Especially when they're in a division that has historically excluded athletes with y chromosomes (or perhaps more specifically, the testosterone that comes with that chromosome) out of competitive fairness.

Again, how often is this happening, this being trans women competing in women’s sports that makes it inherently more dangerous for the females at birth competition? And is it worth legislating such a minuscule issue?

Rarely, and no, though I'm not the right person to ask since it will never directly affect me as a male. But since we're talking about it, I'm giving my opinion.

[MissThundercat]

Since you used to run marathons before you got injured and before your transition, just go look at some of your old times and where you placed and then compare that to where that same time would've put you in the women's division in the same race. Even if you wouldn't win, bet you jump up about 10% in the standings. Might've even meant you had a Boston qualifier time.

Personal best: 4:46:28.

Not a BQ. That would be a BQ if I was age 70-74, or an 80 year old man.

Marathons are like mullets: business up front, party in the back. While transitioning would have moved me slightly up in the back, it still would be the back.