Gender Studies I

[MissThundercat]

Dick pics and unwanted advances and the men who refuse to call that out.

"You're gonna regret it" about HRT, boobs, and potential GCS.

Finding out "educate us" is far too often code for "tell me why I should let you live."

Being called "strong and brave and resilient" time and time again. Any weakness is punished.

All the "visibility and awareness" campaigns without action.

"Are you in the wrong bathroom?" when I'm in public.

"Sir" even when I'm in a dress, push up bra, three inch heels, and makeup.

Being told to "just move to a friendly state" like that will solve anything.

I'm not saying every cis person does this stuff. On the whole, I'm exhausted from having to deal with this **** day after day. I'm also at the point where there will never probably be actual, real, meaningful change in my lifetime. Society has told me "you can exist and pay your taxes, but we're never going to let you have full participation."

I'd rather spend time with Ben and Jerry than try to figure out who's safe and who's a threat.

[unofan]

Plus, they're girls.

The onus is on the bigots. If they think it's unfair let them claim in their Karen hearts that their darling little Erika is the real champion ("she NEEDS this for her Duke application!"), the way racists used to claim that black boxing champions were prima facie illegitimate because they were animals.

They can have their own little TERF standings and award ceremonies. "I support trans women, but let's be reasonable!"

And we'll see how that looks in fifty years.

Let them stand by their "principles" and SHOUT them, not skulk around and hide behind anonymous procedural misogyny.

I am prepared to believe these are good people who just have some ugly worms in their heads. But we don't have to do anything to bow to those worms. If they are so committed to them, let them embrace them and identify themselves with them. Others have shown that degree of pride in their beiefs.

And if you would be embarrassed to carry those signs with your beliefs, then ask yourself: why?

2 things: I've asked this before, and I apologize if you answered before and I just missed it, but what is Dr. Mrs.'s opinion? Given that she has a doctorate, she is clearly a competitive person. I would be interested in her opinions, if nothing else to see where they differ from the women in my own life.

Does it change your mind at all if we get away from individual events like swimming and track and into contact sports? A previous poster mentioned how playing boys hockey got more dangerous for them as they all got older. Girls wrestling is becoming bigger in many states at the high school level, and women's boxing and MMA fights are already big professionally. Are you still ok with a trans woman competing in those sports with no restrictions or requirements to have been on hormone blockers for a set amount of time whatsoever? Participation still trumps all?

[Jeb2020]

How are trans boys doing in athletics? Just take some testosterone and they are all set right?

[MissThundercat]

2 things: I've asked this before, and I apologize if you answered before and I just missed it, but what is Dr. Mrs.'s opinion? Given that she has a doctorate, she is clearly a competitive person. I would be interested in her opinions, if nothing else to see where they differ from the women in my own life.

Does it change your mind at all if we get away from individual events like swimming and track and into contact sports? A previous poster mentioned how playing boys hockey got more dangerous for them as they all got older. Girls wrestling is becoming bigger in many states at the high school level, and women's boxing and MMA fights are already big professionally. Are you still ok with a trans woman competing in those sports with no restrictions or requirements to have been on hormone blockers for a set amount of time whatsoever? Participation still trumps all?

Fallon Fox, trans MMA athlete comes to mind. As I recall, she had to meet requirements to enter the fray.

[Kepler]

2 things: I've asked this before, and I apologize if you answered before and I just missed it, but what is Dr. Mrs.'s opinion? Given that she has a doctorate, she is clearly a competitive person. I would be interested in her opinions, if nothing else to see where they differ from the women in my own life.

On sports, I know she values the human right over a supposed sanctity of the competition. Her attitude towards all of our institutions and activities is "if tolerance and egalitarianism mess with you, the worse for you." So sports is a bad example.

I will pose a thought experiment to her to try to short out her wires. Posit STEM scholarships for women. How do you feel about trans women receiving them? Should there be some mechanism for verifying they are women? By my prior sweeping generalization, there should not. The rightwing bugbear Mr. T should be able to walk in, say "I identify as a woman," and qualify.

That might be a problem for her.

Does it change your mind at all if we get away from individual events like swimming and track and into contact sports? A previous poster mentioned how playing boys hockey got more dangerous for them as they all got older. Girls wrestling is becoming bigger in many states at the high school level, and women's boxing and MMA fights are already big professionally. Are you still ok with a trans woman competing in those sports with no restrictions or requirements to have been on hormone blockers for a set amount of time whatsoever? Participation still trumps all?

On the individual high contact sports like wrestling it's just like going up against a very strong cis woman.

On team sports my initial reaction is a pause. That's interesting. I'm certainly wrong and it's some latent bullsh-t in my beliefs, but I don't know where it comes from. That's a good experiment. So is the justice one I'm going to ask my wife above, although for me personally that's not a problem because, for me, just because some might take advantage is no justification for denying a person their rights.

But these were both excellent questions.

This may sound strange: I don't think we should be guided by principle, here. I know that seems weird, especially to rationalists like you and I. What I mean is, this is an area in which intellectual reasons to justify harming people are still fairly robust. We can't do that with slavery anymore, and intelligent people can't do it about reproductive rights, but trans rights are "new" to us and so there is still a lot of gross rationalization washing around in our heads that justifies making them contingent on other priorities.

Recognizing that, I'm going to go with "first do no harm." If it seems to violate a principle of fairness not to hurt someone, then that principle of fairness has not caught up to reality yet. I know that seems dicey, but it's the closest I can come to describing the experience of realizing some of my intellectual conclusions are nonetheless wrong.

[MissThundercat]

I've heard random comments about a "separate but equal" category for trans athletes.
All that would really do is force trans people to out themselves to people they don't know and put themselves in harm's way just to compete. It's one of the cruelest ideas I've ever heard, and it's worse than being left out entirely.

Also, hearing "cheating and it's not fair to the other girls" even after we meet the standards is something that ****es me off. Outrage after Lia won one event, but silence after she finished 5th and 8th in the other two tells me outrage is selective and anything that doesn't fit the "cheating and unfair" narrative is conveniently ignored.

[Jeb2020]

A trans category is a totally valid topic of discussion based on how athletics is currently set up with Male and Female divisions.

And “outing.” People are well aware when a trans women is competing with girls.

[Jeb2020]

Weird that it varies sport by sport.

The NCAA decided that transgender athlete participation would be decided on a sport-by-sport approach.

As a result, the governing bodies of each sport are responsible for creating their own set of rules on this matter.


Caitlin Jenner on Emma Weyant

@GovRonDeSantis agreed! She is the rightful winner! @TMZ It’s not transphobic or anti-trans, it’s COMMON SENSE!

[Fishman'81]

I've heard random comments about a "separate but equal" category for trans athletes.
All that would really do is force trans people to out themselves to people they don't know and put themselves in harm's way just to compete. It's one of the cruelest ideas I've ever heard, and it's worse than being left out entirely.

Also, hearing "cheating and it's not fair to the other girls" even after we meet the standards is something that ****es me off. Outrage after Lia won one event, but silence after she finished 5th and 8th in the other two tells me outrage is selective and anything that doesn't fit the "cheating and unfair" narrative is conveniently ignored.

Come on. Lia was absolutely nowhere as a male swimmer. (Something like #403 in the US.)

Let's say that Michael Phelps decided to swim as a woman.

"She" would have re-written the record books forever.

This **** is seriously stupid. Either we recognize gender, or we don't... But, ya know what? The concept of biological gender exists for (probably) 99.98% of humanity.

[Swansong]

But people don't just ... "decide" to be a woman. Yes, we need some sort of basic guardrails to keep unscrupulous scumbags from taking advantage of this, but no one just says "hey I'm a lady now".

[LynahFan]

But people don't just ... "decide" to be a woman. Yes, we need some sort of basic guardrails to keep unscrupulous scumbags from taking advantage of this, but no one just says "hey I'm a lady now".

Exactly. From the wailing on the Right, you would think this sort of thing happens all the time - so frequently that it serves the greater good to deny transgendered citizens equal access to government-run activities at public schools and universities. So where is it? Where's a single documented case of someone starting out life as one sex, winning any sort of accolade as the opposite sex, and then switching back?

What's that? You're saying that even though it hasn't happened yet, it *might* happen? That's your basis for allowing governmental discrimination? You might as well say that the government should ban all handguns because they *might* be used in crimes. Or that Conservatives shouldn't be allowed to vote, because they *might* vote for a treasonous puddle of orange drool.

Oh, wait. Strike that last one - not a valid example of an extreme hypothetical.

[MissThundercat]

Exactly. From the wailing on the Right, you would think this sort of thing happens all the time - so frequently that it serves the greater good to deny transgendered citizens equal access to government-run activities at public schools and universities. So where is it? Where's a single documented case of someone starting out life as one sex, winning any sort of accolade as the opposite sex, and then switching back?

What's that? You're saying that even though it hasn't happened yet, it *might* happen? That's your basis for allowing governmental discrimination? You might as well say that the government should ban all handguns because they *might* be used in crimes. Or that Conservatives shouldn't be allowed to vote, because they *might* vote for a treasonous puddle of orange drool.

Oh, wait. Strike that last one - not a valid example of an extreme hypothetical.

At this point, I'm torn between "learn the system to break the system" and "by any means necessary."

[MissThundercat]

Actions have consequences, my good dude.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/03/2...-david-bridle/

[Fishman'81]

Let's say that Zion identified as female.

He ("she") would have left a trail of broken bones on the way to a championship, even if he played for a mediocre woman's program, if it's even OK to cite "women" any more.

This is pretty obvious, and it's fairly absurd to say otherwise.

Gender must exist in sports... Outside of that, gender can be plastic, and no one will care much.

[French Rage]

And did he?