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Campaign 2016 Part XIX: Escape from the Planet of Debates

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  • Re: Campaign 2016 Part XIX: Escape from the Planet of Debates

    Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    Yeah, but I'm pretty sure I found Kep's mission and vision statement in there:
    It is unfortunate that I have given you the impression that is what I am after. It isn't.

    I do think that conservatives have been trained over the last generation to believe that strawman because it is far easier to put it up and then shout it down than it would be to engage with liberals, listen to what we propose and our motives for doing so, and think about it awhile before responding. I believe that if you did this you would find that our basic values and even our goals are not so different from yours, or, more accurately, that there is more variance within liberalism than there is between liberalism and conservatism.

    I also think that conservatives would make the same statement above, just flipping the two terms around.

    Doubtless I don't always succeed but I do try, deliberately, not to slag all conservatives or all conservatism, and I bend over backwards to try to tease out the IMO damaging aspects of what currently is disguised by the far right as "conservative," but which in reality is an authoritarian radicalism to which the right has gradually drifted over the past 50 years.

    I think there are likely folks on the right here on the Cafe who do the same, though the fact that I can't really think of any speaks volumes about the strength of my own confirmation bias and other cognitive deficiencies.

    But here, I'll try again.

    I don't want a meritocratic, scientific Wings Over the World class to dominate politics.

    I don't want to intrude on the way people choose to live, provided they are not hurting other people. But there are such things as basic rights, and "God told me to" or "this is what we've always done" are not magic words that enable one group to violate the rights of another group.

    The political history of America is the story of gradually making good on the Founders' vision of government protecting the freedom to pursue "life, liberty and happiness" of all citizens. We started out in pretty bad shape, actually, with maybe 5% of the adults in the US having that freedom, though in comparison with the world at the time it was probably fairly good. Through the ages we have gradually removed the constraints on that freedom from successive outgroups: non-property holding white males, blacks, women, religious minorities, LGBTQ. We still have people who we treat like sh-t: primarily the poor, but also the occasional ethnic or religious boogeyman. Other western countries have jumped ahead of us on the very train track we laid down, which is galling. But overall I am proud to be a part of the great American Experiment -- proud enough to take it seriously and keep pursuing it.

    We both agree that fundamental rights are not granted by government, they're axiomatic -- for some, by virtue of being human, for sociobiologists by virtue of having voltion, for the religious by virtue of having a soul.

    Where we disagree is the extent to which the government should stop predation against these rights by one group on another. Conservatives prefer a smaller role and in consequence their policies leads inexorably to outcomes that favor the already powerful in expanding their field of action while that of less powerful groups' shrinks.

    Liberalism, by contrast, is the extension of the famous quote about the duty of a free press: "to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable." Conservatism at this time and place has been so triumphant in economic policy that it has, whether intended or not, made its motto the opposite: "to comfort the comfortable and afflict the afflicted." Therefore today I put my weight behind liberalism to correct the imbalance. At another time and place I can imagine feeling that liberalism has gone too far, and I would shift my weight the other way, or at least stop pushing quite so hard.

    That doesn't fit on a bumper sticker, so it's easier to portray liberals with a variety of easy-to-attack caricatures. But if you want to engage with the real thing, there it is. Just as conservatives hate being reduced to dumb stereotypes that don't fit them, so do we.
    Last edited by Kepler; 09-28-2016, 09:55 AM.
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    • Re: Campaign 2016 Part XIX: Escape from the Planet of Debates

      Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post
      Same source:



      Donald Trump: the ungentle enema.
      When you live your life backwards, it's easy to mistake being dragged forward as moving in the wrong direction.

      As for me, if I want to know what color the sky is, I'll look outside rather than give any thought to what 'some two-thirds' of people might say it is.
      Originally posted by dicaslover
      Yep, you got it. I heart Maize.

      Originally posted by Kristin
      Maybe I'm missing something but you just asked me which MSU I go to and then you knew the theme of my homecoming, how do you know one and not the other?

      Western College Hockey Blog

      Comment


      • Re: Campaign 2016 Part XIX: Escape from the Planet of Debates

        Originally posted by unofan View Post
        Republicans have closed that gap in Iowa. Early votes still trend left but not nearly as much as eight years ago.

        The bigger thing to me is organization. When my wife and I voted early four years ago, all mail from the Dems stopped pretty much immediately. The GOP kept wasting money sending us flyers up through election day.
        Oddly enough from the info I saw (and it fine if you have a different source) the Goopers had the same amount of early ballots 13K while the Dems were lower, maybe 40K vs 90K previously. My point being the GOP hasn't gotten any better at early voting, they're hoping not as many Dems bother to vote which is really the theme of the entire election.

        https://apnews.com/b0c860b85d884b6abb23af580ae5b0c1
        Last edited by Rover; 09-28-2016, 09:44 AM.
        Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

        Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

        "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

        Comment


        • Re: Campaign 2016 Part XIX: Escape from the Planet of Debates

          Originally posted by Kepler View Post
          We both agree that these rights are not granted by government, they're axiomatic -- for some, by virtue of being human, for others as a gift from a man in the clouds.
          I tell folks, "The rights (and responsibilities) come when you get your pulse. Argue with someone else where the pulse came from." (The very religious person didn't like it when I reminded him his current pulse came from an AED.)
          The preceding post may contain trigger words and is not safe-space approved. <-- Virtue signaling.

          North Dakota Hockey:

          Comment


          • Re: Campaign 2016 Part XIX: Escape from the Planet of Debates

            Originally posted by FlagDUDE08 View Post
            Julius Caesar, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Barack Obama, or any other corrupt leader that took advantage of an unhappy populace to gain power only to drive things even further into the ground.


            Such low effort trolling.

            Comment


            • Re: Campaign 2016 Part XIX: Escape from the Planet of Debates

              Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post
              I tell folks, "The rights (and responsibilities) come when you get your pulse. Argue with someone else where the pulse came from." (The very religious person didn't like it when I reminded him his current pulse came from an AED.)
              I actually went back and softened my language in the rewrite. I really like your statement though.
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              • Re: Campaign 2016 Part XIX: Escape from the Planet of Debates

                Originally posted by MaizeRage View Post
                When you live your life backwards, it's easy to mistake being dragged forward as moving in the wrong direction.
                That's brilliant. I did a quick search for cite and came up with nothing -- did you just make that up cuz if so, golf clap.
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                • Re: Campaign 2016 Part XIX: Escape from the Planet of Debates

                  Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                  It is unfortunate that I have given you the impression that is what I am after. It isn't.

                  I do think that conservatives have been trained over the last generation to believe that strawman because it is far easier to put it up and then shout it down than it would be to engage with liberals, listen to what we propose and our motives for doing so, and thinking about it awhile before responding. I believe that if you did this you would find that our basic values and even our goals are not so different from yours, or, more accurately, that there is more variance within liberalism than there is between liberalism and conservatism.

                  I also think that conservatives would make the same statement above, just flipping the two terms around.

                  Doubtless I don't always succeed but I do try, deliberately, not to slag all conservatives or all conservatism, and I bend over backwards to try to tease out the IMO damaging aspects of what currently is disguised by the far right as "conservative," but which in reality is an authoritarian radicalism to which the right has gradually drifted over the past 50 years.

                  I think there are likely folks on the right here on the Cafe who do the same, though the fact that I can't really think of any speaks volumes about the strength of my own confirmation bias and other cognitive deficiencies.

                  But here, I'll try again.

                  I don't want a meritocratic, scientific Wings Over the World class to dominate politics.

                  I don't want to intrude on the way people choose to live, provided they are not hurting other people.

                  But there are such things as basic rights, and "God told me to" or "this is what we've always done" are not magic words that enable one group to violate the rights of another group. The political history of America is the story of gradually making good on the Founders' vision of government protecting the rights of "life, liberty and happiness" of all citizens.

                  We both agree that these rights are not granted by government, they're axiomatic -- for some, by virtue of being human, for others as a gift from a man in the clouds.

                  Where we disagree is the extent to which the government is empowered to stop the predation against these rights by one group on another. Conservatives prefer a smaller role and in consequence, or in some cases by design, this leads inexorably to outcomes that favor the already powerful in expanding their field of action while those of less powerful groups' shrinks.

                  Liberalism is the extension of the famous quote about the duty of a free press: "to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable." Conservatism at this time and place has resulted, whether intended or not, in the opposite: "to comfort the comfortable and afflict the afflicted." Therefore I put my weight behind liberalism to correct the imbalance. At another time and place I can imagine feeling that liberalism has gone too far, and I would shift my weight the other way.

                  That doesn't fit on a bumper sticker, so it's easier to portray liberals with a variety of easy-to-attack caricatures. But if you want to engage with the real thing, there it is.
                  QFT.

                  Why aren't people like you running for high office? My guess is you did not avoid government service to pursue an entrepreneurial career that has netted you net wealth measured in the billions. I'm guessing Mrs Dr. Kep is also not a billionaire. So what gives? What skeletons are hiding in your closet?

                  Comment


                  • Re: Campaign 2016 Part XIX: Escape from the Planet of Debates

                    Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post
                    Guitar Hero? Meh, I just play one of these. I dream of some day having one like Les Claypool (and being able to play as well as Les, or Geddy).
                    I know, I know, I know. Here are my two excuses:

                    1) My daughter really wanted to play it when she was 13 or 14 and she and her friends really liked it. I admit I had a month where I was making like Randy (?) from South Park, and yes I feel the shame, but I had a blast.

                    2) In 53 years I haven't discovered a single instrument I have any talent for, and I have tried piano, clarinet, guitar, harp, guitar again, and in a last desperate attempt uke. Like Salieri, I recognize it and my soul cries out for it, but I can't do it.

                    While my father prayed earnestly to God to protect commerce, I would offer up secretly the proudest prayer a boy could think of: "Lord, make me a great composer. Let me celebrate Your glory through music and be celebrated myself. Make me famous through the world, dear God. Make me immortal. After I die, let people speak my name forever with love for what I wrote. In return, I will give You my chastity, my industry, my deepest humility, every hour of my life, Amen." And do you know what happened?

                    Nothin'.
                    Last edited by Kepler; 09-28-2016, 10:06 AM.
                    Cornell University
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                    • Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                      I actually went back and softened my language in the rewrite. I really like your statement though.
                      But if rights came when you got a pulse (responsibilities happen when you claim to be an adult), babies in the womb have a pulse very soon after conception. (and here we go again!).

                      Oh - great Raymond Massey reference there. I haven't seen "Things to Come" on TV in ages. My Dad made us watch it when it came on TV back in my youth.
                      Last edited by joecct; 09-28-2016, 10:00 AM.
                      CCT '77 & '78
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                      - Benjamin Franklin

                      Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                      I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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                      • Re: Campaign 2016 Part XIX: Escape from the Planet of Debates

                        Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post
                        Wow.
                        And you call tDon the fascist?
                        Yes I do. There is a difference between me (a person with zero authority) saying it and him doing it. Keep trying though...

                        Me saying my sister doesnt deserve to be happy isnt me making her unhappy. I dont have to help her either though.
                        "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                        -aparch

                        "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                        -INCH

                        Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                        -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

                        Comment


                        • Re: Campaign 2016 Part XIX: Escape from the Planet of Debates

                          Originally posted by joecct View Post
                          But if rights came when you got a pulse (responsibilities happen when you claim to be an adult), babies in the womb have a pulse very soon after conception. (and here we go again!).

                          Oh - great Raymond Massey reference there. I haven't seen "Things to Come" on TV in ages. My Dad made us watch it when it came on TV back in my youth.
                          "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                          -aparch

                          "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                          -INCH

                          Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                          -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

                          Comment


                          • Re: Campaign 2016 Part XIX: Escape from the Planet of Debates

                            Originally posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
                            QFT.

                            Why aren't people like you running for high office? My guess is you did not avoid government service to pursue an entrepreneurial career that has netted you net wealth measured in the billions. I'm guessing Mrs Dr. Kep is also not a billionaire. So what gives? What skeletons are hiding in your closet?
                            Dr. Mrs. (I'm not the Dr., she is) has for reasons which passeth all understanding chosen to live with me in a 1800 sq ft house on a .3 acre lot in the middle of farm country. If I had billions I'd be living here or here.

                            I can't imagine running for office. It looks like the most soul-destroying activity on earth, and I say that as an employee of an arms manufacturer.
                            Last edited by Kepler; 09-28-2016, 10:19 AM.
                            Cornell University
                            National Champion 1967, 1970
                            ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                            Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                            • Re: Campaign 2016 Part XIX: Escape from the Planet of Debates

                              Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                              2) In 53 years I haven't discovered a single instrument I have any talent for, ...
                              My problem? I had a natural affinity for brass right away, anything brass, save for the garage door opener*. Then I found percussion; and then I made the mistake of picking up a bass. (To me the percussion and bass make sense with the math/physics part of my brain.)


                              *My name for trombones.
                              The preceding post may contain trigger words and is not safe-space approved. <-- Virtue signaling.

                              North Dakota Hockey:

                              Comment


                              • Re: Campaign 2016 Part XIX: Escape from the Planet of Debates

                                Originally posted by joecct View Post
                                I haven't seen "Things to Come" on TV in ages. My Dad made us watch it when it came on TV back in my youth.
                                That's a good dad.
                                Cornell University
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                                ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                                Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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