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History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

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  • #61
    Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

    Note too that it's possible (I am trying to position this delicately because this comment is in no way, shape or form intended to naively give Hitler any benefit of the doubt) but had Hitler run unopposed by even GB the Madagascar Plan may not have been scrapped for the Final Solution, although there are reasons aplenty to severely doubt that abominable decision wasn't inevitable.

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    • #62
      Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

      I didn't read through the whole thread, so don't know if this was mentioned or not, but if you want to listen to a great piece on the WW2 eastern front, check out Hardcore History's Ghosts of the Ostfront. Done extremely well, and while I knew a bit about it going in, still very eye opening. If you have interest in the topic and haven't listened, it really is a must-listen to. (and really, most of Hardcore History is a must listen)
      Having a clear conscience just means you have a bad memory or you had a boring weekend.

      RIP - Kirby

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      • #63
        Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

        Originally posted by Kepler View Post
        WW2 is perhaps the only example in history of a war that wasn't stupid.
        What a great thought to ponder....Define "stupid" in this context.

        I put forth the idea that the Civil War was not stupid, it ended slavery in the US.
        Wisconsin Hockey: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 WE WANT MORE!
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        Originally Posted by Wisko McBadgerton:
        "Baggot says Hughes and Rockwood are centering the top two lines...
        Timothy A --> Great hockey mind... Or Greatest hockey mind?!?"

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        • #64
          Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

          Originally posted by Timothy A View Post
          What a great thought to ponder....Define "stupid" in this context.

          I put forth the idea that the Civil War was not stupid, it ended slavery in the US.
          Well, stupid is probably the wrong word. I was trying to find an alternative to "just," because a "just war" has historically been any war started by the eventual winner.

          Few wars wouldn't have been better done if, instead, the leaders met at dawn and blew one another away.

          In future war should simply be conducted by wiring the 1%'s homes in both nations with dynamite and then randomly detonating them until one side sues for peace.
          Cornell University
          National Champion 1967, 1970
          ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
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          • #65
            Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

            Originally posted by Timothy A View Post
            What a great thought to ponder....Define "stupid" in this context.

            I put forth the idea that the Civil War was not stupid, it ended slavery in the US.
            There are historians out there that started making the argument that the Civil War was 100% avoidable had the US taken the time and effort to, more or less, purchase all of the slaves from their masters and then set them free. It would've been cheaper than the cost of the war, and at least six fewer people would've died as a result.
            "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

            "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

            "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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            • #66
              Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

              Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
              There are historians out there that started making the argument that the Civil War was 100% avoidable had the US taken the time and effort to, more or less, purchase all of the slaves from their masters and then set them free. It would've been cheaper than the cost of the war, and at least six fewer people would've died as a result.
              I think that is flawed. No way it goes that smoothly, and I think a rebellion of some kind ends up happening anyway. There was way more to the civil war than slavery, and buying the slaves does not fix any of that.
              Having a clear conscience just means you have a bad memory or you had a boring weekend.

              RIP - Kirby

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              • #67
                Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

                Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                There are historians out there that started making the argument that the Civil War was 100% avoidable had the US taken the time and effort to, more or less, purchase all of the slaves from their masters and then set them free. It would've been cheaper than the cost of the war, and at least six fewer people would've died as a result.
                Wouldn't buying the slaves have proven the southerners' point?

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                • #68
                  Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

                  Originally posted by bigblue_dl View Post
                  I think that is flawed. No way it goes that smoothly, and I think a rebellion of some kind ends up happening anyway. There was way more to the civil war than slavery, and buying the slaves does not fix any of that.
                  I agree in part. If you look at the build up to the war, there were a whole slew of economic laws passed that favored the North over the South, due in part to the types of industry they favored.

                  Purchasing the slaves could've been done, but it would have been tricky, and would have required assistance from reluctant local authorities. I should say, it's more of a theoretical possibility, but a practical non-starter. Still, it's an interesting what-if thing to ponder.
                  "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                  "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                  "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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                  • #69
                    Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

                    Originally posted by burd View Post
                    Wouldn't buying the slaves have proven the southerners' point?
                    No, I don't think so. It could easily have been spun as a sort of eminent domain issue, or simply as the cost of avoiding blood shed, valuing all human and not just those who've been unjustly subjugated, and the that the end result is what really mattered.
                    "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                    "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                    "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

                    Comment

                    • #70
                      Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

                      If you've ever read "Once an Eagle", there's a bit where one of the "good" Generals wanted to bottle the smells of the battlefield and release it on the floors of Congress and in the offices of the powerbrokers. After they finish vomiting, they may not want to wave the flag, cite patriotism, and mount a war.
                      CCT '77 & '78
                      4 kids
                      8 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18, TJL 1/22, BRL 6/23, NDL 2/24)
                      2 granddaughters (EML 4/18, LCL 5/20)

                      ?€Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.?€
                      - Benjamin Franklin

                      Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                      I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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                      • #71
                        Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

                        Originally posted by joecct View Post
                        If you've ever read "Once an Eagle", there's a bit where one of the "good" Generals wanted to bottle the smells of the battlefield and release it on the floors of Congress and in the offices of the powerbrokers. After they finish vomiting, they may not want to wave the flag, cite patriotism, and mount a war.
                        I bought this on Kindle because of your earlier review of it, but I have yet to read it. Gimme some more inspiration to get me into it.
                        Cornell University
                        National Champion 1967, 1970
                        ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                        Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                        • #72
                          Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

                          Did you just ask Joe to talk dirty to you?
                          Code:
                          As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
College Hockey 6       College Football 0
BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
                          Originally posted by SanTropez
                          May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                          Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                          I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                          Originally posted by Kepler
                          When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                          He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

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                          • #73
                            Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

                            Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                            Did you just ask Joe to talk dirty to you?
                            At my age? Whatever works.
                            Cornell University
                            National Champion 1967, 1970
                            ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                            Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                            • #74
                              Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

                              Let's be honest. That's true at any age. When we're young, we're too horny to care. When we're old, we're moved beyond shame.
                              Code:
                              As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
College Hockey 6       College Football 0
BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
                              Originally posted by SanTropez
                              May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                              Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                              I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                              Originally posted by Kepler
                              When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                              He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

                              Comment

                              • #75
                                Re: History - questioning the winners and how we arrived at this point

                                We all learned about Lincoln's assassination, but the whole story was really never told. I read "Manhunt" by James L Swanson. I see that historical moment in a whole new light. Highly recommend.
                                Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
                                Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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