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  • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Originally posted by Handyman View Post
    That is kind of what you are saying.

    And the system followed the rules...saying it didnt "work".

    Just because the verdict was right based on the system doesnt mean the system is right or it worked. You are ignoring all nuance and context in order to flop around in the bottom of the boat.
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    • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

      Originally posted by jerphisch View Post
      The system is the problem. If you shoot someone that is reaching for their wallet you won't be able to break out the "feared for your life" defense, cops use it every time and keep getting acquitted.
      Exactly. Once a cop gets on the stand and says the magic words ("I feared for my.....whatever") then it's all over. For you and I going on trial the standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt. For a police officer, it's beyond ALL doubt. And that's where the system fails us.

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      • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

        Jury deadlocked in Cosby case, mistrial declared. Prosecution to retry.
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        • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

          Originally posted by dave122793 View Post
          Exactly. Once a cop gets on the stand and says the magic words ("I feared for my.....whatever") then it's all over.
          Sadly true, and this is what needs to change. The officer probably did fear for his life--I doubt he got out of his car planning to murder someone--but then the question needs to be asked: why did he fear for his life? Looking at the situation: 1. I'd assume he'd already run the plates on that car, in which case he could have seen Castile had been stopped over 40 times without major incident. 2. He's pulling the guy over for a busted tail light. 3. The guy is in the car with his girlfriend and small child. 4. He announced he had a gun to someone that already had his gun unholstered, when the element of surprise is probably the only possibility he gets a shot off before the cop.

          The entire scenario the acquittal is based on is that a guy with nothing more than a cost-of-being-black criminal record was going to try to murder a police officer in cold blood in front of his small child over a $50 ticket(and the fact that he probably would have gotten a ticket for that is its' own issue), and end his life one way or another. To accept that as a realistic and reasonable possibility strips away any sort of humanity from Castile.
          Originally posted by dicaslover
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          • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

            Originally posted by MaizeRage View Post
            To accept that as a realistic and reasonable possibility strips away any sort of humanity from Castile.
            Without reading the transcript we don't know how testimony was framed or what the precise instructions to this jury were, but in many cases we know exactly what was said and what they were told. And frequently it is allowed that the defense in these kinds of trials can much more liberally dehumanize the victim and the judge will allow it and that judges go over the top in making sure the jury believes in fact what is beyond the possibility of any and all doubt is only reasonable doubt. Juries convict based in large part on how they perceive the victim, and what a judge charges them (the jury) with as they begin their deliberations.

            The road we are going down is going to lead to this eventual outcome: People of color will be so fearful of people wearing badges they are eventually going to conclude that the cop is a threat, even if he isn't. And guess what? That will lead to more firearm violence directed at cops, not less. Is it right? Of course not. But the fact is the way cops behave is eventually going to see a lot more of them harmed and killed than if they got their act together beforehand. It is exactly what is happening now, the cops are concluding that these people of color are a threat, even when they are not. The people who have knee jerk support for the law enforcement community better begin to understand this. Do you really want to see more cops hurt or killed? This is what the situation is eventually going to devolve into.

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            • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

              You're not wrong Maize, I obviously agree.

              The problem is without video the defense can create some doubt (not what I would consider reasonable) as to whether he reached too quickly, understood/was complying with orders due to being high (and as someone who's smoked plenty of times that's ridiculous, if anything you'd be overly cautious and paranoid), and I'm guessing there were other things as well. The problem is the prosecution usually gets past this hurdle pretty easily when it's anyone other than a cop or a black victim is involved (Trayvon). So yeah, plenty of blame to the jury for sure but the prosecutor must've done a **** job if it was 10-2 in favor of acquittal.

              And yeah ND is right, I wouldn't doubt for a second the judges treat these differently too in terms of how they frame the burden of proof and whatnot.
              Last edited by trixR4kids; 06-17-2017, 02:47 PM.

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              • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                That is kind of what you are saying.

                And the system followed the rules...saying it didnt "work".

                Just because the verdict was right based on the system doesnt mean the system is right or it worked. You are ignoring all nuance and context in order to prove a point.
                Until this recent case, everyone wanted a trial. Not a special investigation, not an independent whatever. They wanted a trial. Well, they got a trial. Transparent. It was up to the peers. And not guilty.

                Again, I do not think the verdict was correct from what I have seen/read, but I have not had access to the whole court transcripts. Yet people are saying the system didn't work, it didn't deliver "justice." Yes, it delivered justice. It does NOT diminish the tragedy that happened whatsoever. It does NOT say Yanez was innocent. It says he was not guilty.
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                • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                  Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
                  It says he was not guilty.
                  It says he was not found guilty.
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                  • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                    Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                    It says he was not found guilty.
                    Same concept.

                    Yes it is semantics. Not guilty isn't the same as innocent.
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                    • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                      When different standards are clearly being applied by juries, prosecutors, and judges in these particular cases involving cops shooting black people then there's plenty reason to believe the system is broken.

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                      • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                        Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
                        Until this recent case, everyone wanted a trial. Not a special investigation, not an independent whatever. They wanted a trial. Well, they got a trial. Transparent. It was up to the peers. And not guilty.
                        What we want Brent, is a FAIR trial. My experience tells me this is most definitely NOT happening. If it was, these cops would be getting convicted left and right. Prosecutors simply don't lose very often when they go to trial. That is a provable, verifiable fact. Look at the numbers. If your prosecuting attorneys or district attorneys, or whatever they are called in your jurisdiction, are losing more than they are winning, elect a new D.A and have him or her hire better trial lawyers. But time and time again, when it is a cop charged with a crime, the prosecutors lose. Why? They are throwing the game. They don't cover all their bases. They don't bring forward as many witnesses. They don't fight tooth and nail when pieces of evidence are thrown out by judges. THEY DON'T TRY AS HARD TO WIN! TAKE THAT TO THE BANK!

                        This is all just like the stuff we talked about surrounding the elections. Its ugly. People don't want to believe that there are ugly, awful things about our society and this is just another one of those things. I know as sure as I know what state I am in right now that if I emptied my clip and put 16 bullets into the back of an unarmed man running away from me I would likely be spending most of the rest of my life in prison, at best. There is very little chance I could prove justification. Unless I am a cop. Then, my chances of spending a day in prison are almost nil.

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                        • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                          Originally posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
                          What we want Brent, is a FAIR trial. My experience tells me this is most definitely NOT happening. If it was, these cops would be getting convicted left and right. Prosecutors simply don't lose very often when they go to trial. That is a provable, verifiable fact. Look at the numbers. If your prosecuting attorneys or district attorneys, or whatever they are called in your jurisdiction, are losing more than they are winning, elect a new D.A and have him or her hire better trial lawyers. But time and time again, when it is a cop charged with a crime, the prosecutors lose. Why? They are throwing the game. They don't cover all their bases. They don't bring forward as many witnesses. They don't fight tooth and nail when pieces of evidence are thrown out by judges. THEY DON'T TRY AS HARD TO WIN! TAKE THAT TO THE BANK!

                          This is all just like the stuff we talked about surrounding the elections. Its ugly. People don't want to believe that there are ugly, awful things about our society and this is just another one of those things. I know as sure as I know what state I am in right now that if I emptied my clip and put 16 bullets into the back of an unarmed man running away from me I would likely be spending most of the rest of my life in prison, at best. There is very little chance I could prove justification. Unless I am a cop. Then, my chances of spending a day in prison are almost nil.

                          You are way overstating this at best. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics in 2007, only 3% of all state felony cases went to trial. Because so many cases are pled, the conviction rate overall is quite high for any given prosecutor. But depending on the jurisdiction there is quite a wide array of results for prosecutors who actually go to a jury trial. Last year in Florida for example, only 59% of all state jury trials resulted in any conviction on any charge. That's an overall winning percentage, but it is very, very far from "they don't lose very often when they go to trial." Prosecutors do, in fact, lose quite often in front of juries.
                          Originally posted by WiscTJK
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                          • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                            Originally posted by Wisko McBadgerton View Post
                            You are way overstating this at best. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics in 2007, only 3% of all state felony cases went to trial. Because so many cases are pled, the conviction rate overall is quite high for any given prosecutor. But depending on the jurisdiction there is quite a wide array of results for prosecutors who actually go to a jury trial. Last year in Florida for example, only 59% of all state jury trials resulted in any conviction on any charge. That's an overall winning percentage, but it is very, very far from "they don't lose very often when they go to trial." Prosecutors do, in fact, lose quite often in front of juries.
                            I can cherry pick too. In Texas its over 80%. In California its over 70%. And here's one for you, one study shows 80 cops over a 12 year period beginning in 2005 have been charged in fatal shootings and only 28 were convicted, barely a third. Most advocates will also strongly contest as fact that only 80 were deemed to be involved in shootings that were sufficiently suspect enough to warrant charges. By any statistical measure more cops should be convicted.

                            The recent events in Tennessee are also telling. A civilian is being praised by law enforcement authorities and gun rights groups alike for the way he went about detaining two escaped, violent convicts. Everybody is talking about the restraint he showed in alerting police and keeping them covered -- without firing a shot -- until the cops got there. This is a person without all that training and experience that law enforcement officers are supposedly blessed with and he managed to keep two violent fleeing felons alive. Obviously this can't be proven, but how many people here think that the outcome might have been different if these were two young black man on the streets of any large American city? Both my hands are raised high by the way.

                            Cops are out of control in many jurisdictions. The numbers prove it. And the numbers prove they don't pay the same price the rest of society pays.

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                            • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                              Originally posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
                              I can cherry pick too. In Texas its over 80%. In California its over 70%. And here's one for you, one study shows 80 cops over a 12 year period beginning in 2005 have been charged in fatal shootings and only 28 were convicted, barely a third. Most advocates will also strongly contest as fact that only 80 were deemed to be involved in shootings that were sufficiently suspect enough to warrant charges. By any statistical measure more cops should be convicted.

                              The recent events in Tennessee are also telling. A civilian is being praised by law enforcement authorities and gun rights groups alike for the way he went about detaining two escaped, violent convicts. Everybody is talking about the restraint he showed in alerting police and keeping them covered -- without firing a shot -- until the cops got there. This is a person without all that training and experience that law enforcement officers are supposedly blessed with and he managed to keep two violent fleeing felons alive. Obviously this can't be proven, but how many people here think that the outcome might have been different if these were two young black man on the streets of any large American city? Both my hands are raised high by the way.

                              Cops are out of control in many jurisdictions. The numbers prove it. And the numbers prove they don't pay the same price the rest of society pays.
                              Very good post. 👍
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                              As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
                              College Hockey 6       College Football 0
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                              Originally posted by SanTropez
                              May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                              Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                              I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                              Originally posted by Kepler
                              When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                              He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

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                              • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                                Originally posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
                                I can cherry pick too. In Texas its over 80%. In California its over 70%. And here's one for you, one study shows 80 cops over a 12 year period beginning in 2005 have been charged in fatal shootings and only 28 were convicted, barely a third. Most advocates will also strongly contest as fact that only 80 were deemed to be involved in shootings that were sufficiently suspect enough to warrant charges. By any statistical measure more cops should be convicted.

                                The recent events in Tennessee are also telling. A civilian is being praised by law enforcement authorities and gun rights groups alike for the way he went about detaining two escaped, violent convicts. Everybody is talking about the restraint he showed in alerting police and keeping them covered -- without firing a shot -- until the cops got there. This is a person without all that training and experience that law enforcement officers are supposedly blessed with and he managed to keep two violent fleeing felons alive. Obviously this can't be proven, but how many people here think that the outcome might have been different if these were two young black man on the streets of any large American city? Both my hands are raised high by the way.

                                Cops are out of control in many jurisdictions. The numbers prove it. And the numbers prove they don't pay the same price the rest of society pays.
                                I didn't cherry pick, I happen to live in Florida.

                                Regardless, you cannot take a statistic generated from tens of thousands of trials and then apply it to 80 selected cases and claim only 28 convictions is some sort of terrible injustice based on that only. It's a ludicrous argument. A flipped coin coming up heads 5 times in a row isn't an anomaly, it's insignificant.
                                Originally posted by WiscTJK
                                I'm with Wisko and Tim.
                                Originally posted by Timothy A
                                Other than Wisko McBadgerton and Badger Bob, who is universally loved by all?

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