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Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

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  • trixR4kids
    replied
    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Originally posted by joecct View Post
    Silly, IMO. If you draw your weapon, you're not contemplating a slap on the wrist. If you want to disable the suspect/perp/citizen, use a taser.
    Is it silly that they don't kill as many people as they do here?

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  • unofan
    replied
    Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
    You probably think that a cop can shoot the gun out of someone's hand.

    You shoot where you have the most likely chance to hit your target. Yes, that area happens to have vital organs. No, cops are not trained to hit those vital organs. They are trained to hit that large mass of area.
    I'm saying it's doublespeak, nothing more. They say they're trained to "stop the threat" because it plays well to juries in the inevitable lawsuit and it probably gives them some personal absolution in the rare event they have to fire their weapon (I didn't intend to kill that person, I just wanted to stop him).

    But the fact remains that the way they stop the threat is almost inevitably by killing the person. Hell, I previously linked to a former FBI trainer's report on the Cleveland police shooting involving the 12 year old, and her words were even starker. Something along the lines of "the most effective way to stop a threat is to prevent oxygen from reaching the decision-making center" or something to that effect. So they aren't trained to kill, they're just trained to deprive the brain of oxygen through blood loss.

    To any lay person, that sounds a helluva lot like being trained to kill.
    Last edited by unofan; 07-12-2017, 11:39 AM.

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  • Kepler
    replied
    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Originally posted by joecct View Post
    Silly, IMO. If you draw your weapon, you're not contemplating a slap on the wrist. If you want to disable the suspect/perp/citizen, use a taser.
    I believe the time-honored cliches are never pull a weapon unless you intend to fire it and never fire a weapon at someone unless you intend to kill.

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  • joecct
    replied
    Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
    What you're missing is that not all cops in every country are trained to do this. Like in Finland they shoot to maim and stop the suspect.
    Silly, IMO. If you draw your weapon, you're not contemplating a slap on the wrist. If you want to disable the suspect/perp/citizen, use a taser.

    Leave a comment:


  • trixR4kids
    replied
    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    What you're missing is that not all cops in every country are trained to do this. Like in Finland they shoot to maim and stop the suspect.

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  • The Rube
    replied
    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Originally posted by unofan View Post
    yeah, but let's be honest. They're trained to shoot at an area where the likely result is going to be death. You can call it stopping the threat, if that makes you feel better, but if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's still a duck.
    You probably think that a cop can shoot the gun out of someone's hand.

    You shoot where you have the most likely chance to hit your target. Yes, that area happens to have vital organs. No, cops are not trained to hit those vital organs. They are trained to hit that large mass of area.

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  • unofan
    replied
    Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
    They are trained to shoot at the torso because that is the biggest mass of a person's body, and will most likely stop the threat, since there is less chance of missing the shot. It's basic odds. If they were trained to kill (such as snipers) then they'd be going for head shots.
    yeah, but let's be honest. They're trained to shoot at an area where the likely result is going to be death. You can call it stopping the threat, if that makes you feel better, but if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's still a duck.

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  • The Rube
    replied
    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Originally posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
    That being said, the dog stuff is disturbing. My MPLS pd friends ironically have staffordshire dogs, just like the ones shot. And their dogs are truly nanny dogs, babying their kids. I suspect my friends struggle with this shooting too.
    I'm going to wait until everything comes out. On the surface....uh-oh.....but the dog owner didn't help herself by saying that the dogs were doing their job...that implies protecting the property/owner, which could constitute a threat to the "invaders" which in this case are police officers.

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  • Deutsche Gopher Fan
    replied
    Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
    To add to that, unless you are a sociopath, no matter how well you are trained, there is some level of anxiety. It could be very minimal, but there is a level. You are shooting at another human being (and also the fear that you will be harmed). A common misconception is that one shot should do it. That could be the case, but in that position, do you want to take that chance? You fire until you deem the threat to be neutralized.
    That being said, the dog stuff is disturbing. My MPLS pd friends ironically have staffordshire dogs, just like the ones shot. And their dogs are truly nanny dogs, babying their kids. I suspect my friends struggle with this shooting too.
    Edit- not a commentary on shooting humans, I don't ask them opinions on things like the philandro shooting for a reason.

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  • The Rube
    replied
    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Originally posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
    Agreed. I have several friends in Minneapolis pd. These are not kill shot snipers
    To add to that, unless you are a sociopath, no matter how well you are trained, there is some level of anxiety. It could be very minimal, but there is a level. You are shooting at another human being (and also the fear that you will be harmed). A common misconception is that one shot should do it. That could be the case, but in that position, do you want to take that chance? You fire until you deem the threat to be neutralized.

    Leave a comment:


  • Deutsche Gopher Fan
    replied
    Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
    They are trained to shoot at the torso because that is the biggest mass of a person's body, and will most likely stop the threat, since there is less chance of missing the shot. It's basic odds. If they were trained to kill (such as snipers) then they'd be going for head shots.
    Agreed. I have several friends in Minneapolis pd. These are not kill shot snipers

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  • The Rube
    replied
    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Originally posted by unofan View Post
    But they won't admit they're trained to kill. They're trained "to stop the threat." It's just coincidence that to stop the threat, they aim at the center of mass where all the vital organs are located.

    Corporate double speak has nothing on the criminal justice system. Just like no modern jail has solitary confinement. But they do have SHUs (special housing units), where inmates are left alone for 23 hours per day, aren't supposed to talk to anyone, and otherwise have no outside contact except for the guards and occasionally their attorneys. But that's not solitary confinement...
    They are trained to shoot at the torso because that is the biggest mass of a person's body, and will most likely stop the threat, since there is less chance of missing the shot. It's basic odds. If they were trained to kill (such as snipers) then they'd be going for head shots.

    Leave a comment:


  • dxmnkd316
    replied
    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Originally posted by unofan View Post
    So "To serve and protect" is as accurate a slogan as "Fair and balanced"?
    More like "registered independent"

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  • unofan
    replied
    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
    Um, police departments generally do not exist in order to "serve the community." (except perhaps tangentially).
    So "To serve and protect" is as accurate a slogan as "Fair and balanced"?

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  • Kepler
    replied
    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
    Um, police departments generally do not exist in order to "serve the community." (except perhaps tangentially)

    Ostensibly, they exist to arrest criminals and solve crimes. If, as a result, the community is "served" by these actions, it is a by-product, not an overt purpose.

    Implicitly, they exist to protect the rich and powerful from being overrun by rioting mobs when times are hard.
    I understand that the cops are the final resort to protect the enslavement of the poor by the rich, though I am pleasantly surprised even you will admit this.

    But yes, the cops don't descend from the heavens, they have a function without which they are at best parasitic and at worst an actual problem. They uphold the laws so that lawful people can go about without being harmed illegally. They also enforce the legal harm inflicted by the wealthy on the poor, hence their status as the praetorian guard of the rich. They are, in other words, domestic soldiers, who do the same thing outside the border.

    But the rich were forced to extend the franchise to everyone, hence laws could at least in theory actually protect everyone equally, and part of that would be training the cops to be non-threatening and impartial rather than provocative and biased against the poor. We can actually do that, you and I, well, I anyway, with our votes, and that's what I suggest we aim for.

    Part of a just society is having just laws, but part is also having a just process in which state institutions don't perpetuate the systemic harm of inequality. We should aim for that. You can try to keep the cops as guard dogs for the rich -- that's your bag and hey you seem to be winning. But many on my side will actually try to improve things and bring a little sanity to the process. And likely help the cops, too, who under your regime are just an occupying army.

    Leave a comment:

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