Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

[The Rube]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

But... this guy says you guys are the real problem.

The question I have is the phrase "pulling a gun" (or similar). If he was committing a crime (note the word "if"), and let's just say he pulled the gun out to drop it.....either way, he pulled a gun. I think we can all agree that when a gun is potentially in play, you don't have a lot of reaction time. Now, I'm not dismissing your post. I don't know the full truth. I don't know all the facts.

Going back to my and Handy's posts....what was he doing with that type of looking gun in the first place? (not that it in any way necessarily justifies his death).
Was he actually pulling the gun to use? Or to drop?
Was he following police orders?
DID the police ask him to remove any objects from his person (doubtful, that's just unsafe).
Did he follow any police orders?
Did the police actually GIVE any orders?

Lots to dissect here. I'll sit and wait. Yes, I have my initial judgement based on the facts SO FAR, but I'm very willing to change my mind.

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I'll say this about the Columbus shooting, while we don't know all that happened, hearing that the cop who did the killing has killed before gives me great pause. We all know most police officers go an entire career without firing their weapon in the line. Even fewer do so fatally. For this officer to have killed twice (and he's only 31 so I'm guessing his career has not hit the decade mark yet even) is such a statistical anomaly that it makes me think he might be ill-suited for this line of work. My guess is the Columbus PD, like most of them, does an awful job of teaching their officers how to deescalate.

[The Rube]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I'll say this about the Columbus shooting, while we don't know all that happened, hearing that the cop who did the killing has killed before gives me great pause. We all know most police officers go an entire career without firing their weapon in the line. Even fewer do so fatally. For this officer to have killed twice (and he's only 31 so I'm guessing his career has not hit the decade mark yet even) is such a statistical anomaly that it makes me think he might be ill-suited for this line of work. My guess is the Columbus PD, like most of them, does an awful job of teaching their officers how to deescalate.

To....well, just play a role here.....they may teach well, but the officer may just smile and nod and ignore and do what the heck he wants. As much as I love the blue line, it's a possibility this happens. And I'm guessing in some parts of the country, it's a probability.

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

To....well, just play a role here.....they may teach well, but the officer may just smile and nod and ignore and do what the heck he wants. As much as I love the blue line, it's a possibility this happens. And I'm guessing in some parts of the country, it's a probability.

Actually the problem is they DON'T teach effective deescalation tactics anymore. It's just the opposite. Law enforcement morphed some years ago into an all-out aggression model. It may have been thought they were doing the right thing, and lives could be saved. They're wrong, but since politicians are fearful of crossing the police it will take a generation or more to come up with a model that works better than what we see now.

[state of hockey]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I'm not speaking about this particular case, but it seems like some law enforcement agencies have a Police vs. Civilians mentality. This has to go.

[The Rube]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I'm not speaking about this particular case, but it seems like some law enforcement agencies have a Police vs. Civilians mentality. This has to go.

To be fair, also vice versa.

[unofan]

To be fair, also vice versa.

To be fair, the cops are paid to deal with shiat. Citizens are paying to not be treated like shiat.

[trixR4kids]

No offense but that is a helluva lot more believable than they saw random black kid and decided to shoot him cause...reasons! I know it is not a popular thought but cops are innocent until proven guilty as well.

There's been plenty of cases where people running away got shot unjustifiably, which is what the eye witness said. And this forum isn't a court of law so there's really no reason to pull out that tired line.

That said even if there was video like in the case of Tamir Rice it still wouldn't matter. He got blasted within seconds of cops leaving their car in an open carry state. This one I doubt we'll ever know what truly happened.

[The Rube]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

To be fair, the cops are paid to deal with shiat. Citizens are paying to not be treated like shiat.

The cops are also not taught to over-react (yes, I know some cops ignore all that). Some citizens are "taught" to just shoot cops if confronted. /gangs /notjusttalkingblackfolks /HellsAngelsEtc

[unofan]

The cops are also not taught to over-react (yes, I know some cops ignore all that). Some citizens are "taught" to just shoot cops if confronted. /gangs /notjusttalkingblackfolks /HellsAngelsEtc

I'm not 100% sure I agree with your assessment that cops aren't trained to overreact.

Considering they are trained to view everything as dangerous (in the "there is no such thing as a normal traffic stop" mindset as you've repeated on here), I could easily argue they are trained to overreact to otherwise innocent actions.

[The Rube]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I'm not 100% sure I agree with your assessment that cops aren't trained to overreact.

Considering they are trained to view everything as dangerous (in the "there is no such thing as a normal traffic stop" mindset as you've repeated on here), I could easily argue they are trained to overreact to otherwise innocent actions.

Assess, act accordingly, for the cops.

Some citizens...."Oh I'm being confronted by cops, I'll just shoot 'em. That'll take care of it."

That is what I am getting at.

[unofan]

Assess, act accordingly, for the cops.

Some citizens...."Oh I'm being confronted by cops, I'll just shoot 'em. That'll take care of it."

That is what I am getting at.

And I'm saying "act accordingly" for cops, isn't necessarily what the average citizen would deem appropriate, even if they are following their training.

In other words, I think the training is part of the problem.

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

The cops are also not taught to over-react (yes, I know some cops ignore all that). Some citizens are "taught" to just shoot cops if confronted. /gangs /notjusttalkingblackfolks /HellsAngelsEtc

There's no evidence this happens Brent. People who kill cops are individuals who are evil, desperate, mentally ill or often a combination of one or more of these. There's no grand conspiracy among the criminal element to take down every cop that confronts them. You make it sound as if there is some school of thought among the collective criminal element of society to shoot first and ask questions later. The reality is usually the opposite. Most criminals confronted by cops are unarmed.

But you're just flat out wrong when you say cops are not taught to over-react, other than you and I might have a basic disagreement over what constitutes an overreaction. The police are TRAINED to react with overwhelming force as far as they are able when they feel they are confronted with any sort of danger. It's beyond routine to see 3 and 4 and 5 or more cops taking down an individual. And what are they all doing? Of course they're all yelling and screaming to "stop resisting" because it sounds and looks better if they happen to be caught on video by a citizen or by their own body or cruiser cams. They have mastered the art of the 21 foot rule, whereby a criminal can move 21 feet by the time they react so instead of maintaining a separation of MORE than 21 feet they are taught to approach with firearms drawn and to react loudly and violently to everything that comes their way. No they are not taught to kill anyone who says "boo" but the way they are trained invites violence. It does not lessen the chance of it. Few police are trained sufficiently in how to deal with people with mental illness. Most police officers have never heard of the concept of mental illness first aid. Yet many of the people they deal with are mentally ill and I'd go so far as to say most of the violent ones have some history of significant mental illness.

Fact is, there are messed up people out there that do bad things. That ain't gonna change. What has to change is how law enforcement deals with them. Otherwise we'll keep on having cops kill citizens needlessly, and oh by the way, we'll keep on seeing cops getting killed needlessly.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

There's no evidence this happens Brent. People who kill cops are individuals who are evil, desperate, mentally ill or often a combination of one or more of these. There's no grand conspiracy among the criminal element to take down every cop that confronts them. You make it sound as if there is some school of thought among the collective criminal element of society to shoot first and ask questions later. The reality is usually the opposite. Most criminals confronted by cops are unarmed.

But you're just flat out wrong when you say cops are not taught to over-react, other than you and I might have a basic disagreement over what constitutes an overreaction. The police are TRAINED to react with overwhelming force as far as they are able when they feel they are confronted with any sort of danger. It's beyond routine to see 3 and 4 and 5 or more cops taking down an individual. And what are they all doing? Of course they're all yelling and screaming to "stop resisting" because it sounds and looks better if they happen to be caught on video by a citizen or by their own body or cruiser cams. They have mastered the art of the 21 foot rule, whereby a criminal can move 21 feet by the time they react so instead of maintaining a separation of MORE than 21 feet they are taught to approach with firearms drawn and to react loudly and violently to everything that comes their way. No they are not taught to kill anyone who says "boo" but the way they are trained invites violence. It does not lessen the chance of it. Few police are trained sufficiently in how to deal with people with mental illness. Most police officers have never heard of the concept of mental illness first aid. Yet many of the people they deal with are mentally ill and I'd go so far as to say most of the violent ones have some history of significant mental illness.

Fact is, there are messed up people out there that do bad things. That ain't gonna change. What has to change is how law enforcement deals with them. Otherwise we'll keep on having cops kill citizens needlessly, and oh by the way, we'll keep on seeing cops getting killed needlessly.

Actually, they scream "stop resisting" because that means they can be sure to charge the person with something, even if they're arresting them for something entirely bogus. In addition, it clears them of wrongdoing if they feel like physically assaulting the person a bit.

The whole thing is basically provocation of a war, and all because one group does not trust the other and wants to protect its own interest. It gives me this really bad feeling of how the American government will suspend an election and declare martial law if it looks like Trump will win (this is only a prediction, by no means do I say it will happen): Cops are instructed to go after a few people or group, Soros gets BLM to retaliate in the form of nation-wide riots, the military is instructed to take them all out, and if they refuse, the UN is brought into action to do so.

[Jimjamesak]

Actually, they scream "stop resisting" because that means they can be sure to charge the person with something, even if they're arresting them for something entirely bogus. In addition, it clears them of wrongdoing if they feel like physically assaulting the person a bit.

Ok this is pretty reasonable...

The whole thing is basically provocation of a war, and all because one group does not trust the other and wants to protect its own interest. It gives me this really bad feeling of how the American government will suspend an election and declare martial law if it looks like Trump will win (this is only a prediction, by no means do I say it will happen): Cops are instructed to go after a few people or group, Soros gets BLM to retaliate in the form of nation-wide riots, the military is instructed to take them all out, and if they refuse, the UN is brought into action to do so.

And now we're in crazy town.