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Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

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  • #931
    Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

    Originally posted by Handyman View Post

    Putting a rope around my neck does not mean the same thing as putting a rope around a black kids neck and they should not be treated the same.
    It COULD mean the same thing. You and the other victim just rubbed the criminal the wrong way, no matter what color you are. That's the issue I have with the hate crime laws.

    The criminal didn't do it based on skin color, or sexual orientation, or whatever. He did it because he does not like you, you have something he wants, whatever. Finding out exact intent is a bit more complicated than it seems, you know?
    Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
    Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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    • #932
      Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

      Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
      The criminal didn't do it based on skin color, or sexual orientation, or whatever. He did it because he does not like you, you have something he wants, whatever. Finding out exact intent is a bit more complicated than it seems, you know?
      It's not complicated if someone is Tweeting or Facebooking their intent. In which cases you're aware of was it complicated?

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      • #933
        Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

        Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
        It COULD mean the same thing. You and the other victim just rubbed the criminal the wrong way, no matter what color you are. That's the issue I have with the hate crime laws.

        The criminal didn't do it based on skin color, or sexual orientation, or whatever. He did it because he does not like you, you have something he wants, whatever. Finding out exact intent is a bit more complicated than it seems, you know?
        You dont think the person who put a noose around the Black kids neck in Mississippi did it cause the kid is Black and it means something specific? Are you actually that naive or is this your way of being the Devil's Advocate?

        I get what your saying and in general I agree with you but come on man this is not a heavily esoteric deal to figure out. The attacker chose a noose for a reason. (and he wouldnt have chosen that for us for the same reason) There is an added bit of terrorism involved when you represent lynching to a Black person...and as such there should be a higher degree of punishment. I seriously dont understand how you can even argue against it.
        "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
        -aparch

        "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
        -INCH

        Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
        -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

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        • #934
          Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

          Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
          Ok, but I want to be sure that we're not mixing up motive and intent.

          If you intend to run over your mailman in your driveway, because you don't like that your mail is always late, that's murder.
          "I don't approve of it. But I understand."

          If you intend to run over your black mailman in your driveway, after screaming at him and on your way to the Klan meeting, isn't that also just murder? Why do we need to "specialize" the crime?
          I can see one difference immediately: the degree to which I am a danger to others. In the former case I'm a danger to tardy mailmen. In the latter, to black people (and Catholics? Does the Klan still hate Catholics? I haven't heard of a lot of anti-Catholic Klan rhetoric lately, maybe they've swapped in the Muslims.)


          Maybe this is where we differ. I don't think the second is any worse or any better than the first. Both are equally terrible and should be punished.

          When we punish one more significantly than the other, then don't we effectively (whether intentional or not) diminish the significance of the other?
          I don't think that's a good argument. The idea is for the punishment to fit the crime. So for example there's no death penalty for rape, but that doesn't diminish the significance of rape.


          What if we take race out of it.

          Let's say in one instance you intentionally run over your mailman because your mail is always late. In the second, you run over your mailman because you know he is an active supporter of "conceal and carry" laws and you hate people who support those laws.

          Now, do we want the government to pick a side on that motive? Should we pass a law making it an illegal hate crime to commit that act by you?

          That's the ultimate problem when we start assigning crimes by motive, is we make the government pick a side. We may think it's easy with things like race, since we'd hope the government would pick a side against racial hatred, but not all "hate" crimes are going to be so easy.
          Although I see where you're going, IMO you can't simply substitute any x for race. The idea of hate crimes is that there are historically persecuted-against characteristics. Discrimination against people based on these characteristics is a reality of life. This is not a theoretical exercise: actions harming people based on this prejudice are part of the everyday reality for these people.
          Cornell University
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          • #935
            Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

            Originally posted by Handyman View Post
            You dont think the person who put a noose around the Black kids neck in Mississippi did it cause the kid is Black and it means something specific? Are you actually that naive or is this your way of being the Devil's Advocate?

            I get what your saying and in general I agree with you but come on man this is not a heavily esoteric deal to figure out. The attacker chose a noose for a reason. (and he wouldnt have chosen that for us for the same reason) There is an added bit of terrorism involved when you represent lynching to a Black person...and as such there should be a higher degree of punishment
            "Personal terrorism" is a good way to think about it. Put a noose around my neck I think of The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly. Put a noose around a black person's neck and you are tapping in to the history of lynchings with all its degradation and violence. There is more of an offense in the second case -- there is the "terror" of all those associations.

            Compare this and this.
            Cornell University
            National Champion 1967, 1970
            ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
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            • #936
              Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

              Originally posted by Handyman View Post
              You dont think the person who put a noose around the Black kids neck in Mississippi did it cause the kid is Black and it means something specific? Are you actually that naive or is this your way of being the Devil's Advocate?

              I get what your saying and in general I agree with you but come on man this is not a heavily esoteric deal to figure out. The attacker chose a noose for a reason. (and he wouldnt have chosen that for us for the same reason) There is an added bit of terrorism involved when you represent lynching to a Black person...and as such there should be a higher degree of punishment. I seriously dont understand how you can even argue against it.
              In THIS particular situation, the intent is pretty clear. I'm talking in general about the "hate crime" label. Apologies if that didn't come across.
              Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
              Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

              Comment

              • #937
                Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

                Guess they truly think of them as animals. http://countercurrentnews.com/2016/1...k-dog-kennels/

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                • #938
                  Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

                  Someone Is Getting Fired...

                  What the hell is wrong with people...
                  "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                  -aparch

                  "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                  -INCH

                  Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                  -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

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                  • #939
                    Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                    Someone Is Getting Fired...

                    What the hell is wrong with people...
                    Every kid < 21 has done something really really stupid. It's what you do with the lesson afterwards is what is important.

                    If the faculty advisor saw and approved the sign, he/she lost the position and maybe the job.
                    CCT '77 & '78
                    4 kids
                    8 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18, TJL 1/22, BRL 6/23, NDL 2/24)
                    2 granddaughters (EML 4/18, LCL 5/20)

                    ?€Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.?€
                    - Benjamin Franklin

                    Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                    I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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                    • #940
                      Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                      Someone Is Getting Fired...

                      What the hell is wrong with people...
                      Lol. How is this still a thing?
                      **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                      Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                      Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

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                      • #941
                        Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

                        Well yeah you cant fire the kids...though you can give them lots of detention (they knew what they were saying)

                        The Cheerleading coach should be giving his/her walking papers as should any other adult who knew.
                        "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                        -aparch

                        "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                        -INCH

                        Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                        -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

                        Comment

                        • #942
                          Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

                          Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                          Well yeah you cant fire the kids...though you can give them lots of detention (they knew what they were saying)

                          The Cheerleading coach should be giving his/her walking papers as should any other adult who knew.
                          You're assuming the coach knew. Kids can be sneaky and push their luck even after having been denied something.

                          I would think a teacher should know that.
                          "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                          "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                          "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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                          • #943
                            Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

                            Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                            You're assuming the coach knew. Kids can be sneaky and push their luck even after having been denied something.

                            I would think a teacher should know that.
                            There is a .0001% chance someone didnt see them making this. This isnt a note being passed in class it is a banner for the football game.
                            "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                            -aparch

                            "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                            -INCH

                            Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                            -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

                            Comment

                            • #944
                              Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

                              Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                              There is a .0001% chance someone didnt see them making this. This isnt a note being passed in class it is a banner for the football game.
                              It appears that things have changed since I was in school.
                              "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                              "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                              "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

                              Comment

                              • #945
                                Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

                                Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                                Someone Is Getting Fired...

                                What the hell is wrong with people...
                                I will admit I laughed out loud. Obviously they have to reprimand them but Jesus if anybody had done that in my high school they'd be a living legend.

                                (If you want a special HS edition of "what is wrong with people?," several kids in the graduating class before mine were expelled for cutting the guy wires on a commercial radio transmission tower.)
                                Last edited by Kepler; 11-01-2016, 01:45 PM.
                                Cornell University
                                National Champion 1967, 1970
                                ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                                Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

                                Comment

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