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  • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    Originally posted by Kepler View Post
    Are you kidding? This is one of those instances in which I simply don't understand how someone comes to that conclusion. Doctors know what seizures are, they know what psychotic episodes are. He had one. He interpreted it as seeing God.

    Are you saying "well, maybe that's what seeing God reads as"? Because I suppose that is an interpretation, but surely not with Occam's Razor.
    I have actually, at times, found it very difficult to determine capacity in patients during urgent, on the spot, evaluations when they make grandiose religious based claims. If I know a patient well, it really is not that hard. But on a night shift, when you are covering 100 patients that you have 2-3 lines on, you have not seen during the daylight, and you get called to a "Code Violet" and find several hospital cops securing an extremely upset patient who wants to leave the hospital because God told them there was important work to do that night...it is not as easy.

    For instance, if I were hospitalized for severe pneumonia and at 2 AM, decide I want to leave, one could hand me my AMA paperwork and send me on my way if they deem I have capacity. Now if I were saying about how God will protect me, pneumonia is the devil's work and all I need is prayer, a physician who knows me should deem me non-decisional based on my prior actions/beliefs. However, swap me out with a patient who is very religious, says things like that when not acutely ill...do they have capacity?

    **** ....just realized that was off topic. Anyway...I have had a patient be disappointed that we fixed their seizures because they associated them with gods voice. Our confidence was not based on a "belief," we saw the seizures...we saw them associated on video and EEG...the areas of increased activity correlated with current understanding of neuroanatomy...and we saw them (both EEG activity and the voice) resolve with proper anti-epileptics. Nothing mysterious...just our wonderful brain misbehaving in a consistent, repeatable, and mappable manner.
    In the immortal words of Jean Paul Sartre, 'Au revoir, gopher'.

    Originally posted by burd
    I look at some people and I just know they do it doggy style. No way they're getting close to my kids.

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    • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

      Originally posted by WisconsinWildcard View Post
      I have actually, at times, found it very difficult to determine capacity in patients during urgent, on the spot, evaluations when they make grandiose religious based claims. If I know a patient well, it really is not that hard. But on a night shift, when you are covering 100 patients that you have 2-3 lines on, you have not seen during the daylight, and you get called to a "Code Violet" and find several hospital cops securing an extremely upset patient who wants to leave the hospital because God told them there was important work to do that night...it is not as easy.

      For instance, if I were hospitalized for severe pneumonia and at 2 AM, decide I want to leave, one could hand me my AMA paperwork and send me on my way if they deem I have capacity. Now if I were saying about how God will protect me, pneumonia is the devil's work and all I need is prayer, a physician who knows me should deem me non-decisional based on my prior actions/beliefs. However, swap me out with a patient who is very religious, says things like that when not acutely ill...do they have capacity?

      **** ....just realized that was off topic. Anyway...I have had a patient be disappointed that we fixed their seizures because they associated them with gods voice. Our confidence was not based on a "belief," we saw the seizures...we saw them associated on video and EEG...the areas of increased activity correlated with current understanding of neuroanatomy...and we saw them (both EEG activity and the voice) resolve with proper anti-epileptics. Nothing mysterious...just our wonderful brain misbehaving in a consistent, repeatable, and mappable manner.
      interesting post. and true

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      • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

        Originally posted by Kepler View Post
        Are you kidding? This is one of those instances in which I simply don't understand how someone comes to that conclusion. Doctors know what seizures are, they know what psychotic episodes are. He had one. He interpreted it as seeing God.
        OK...help me understand.

        I can't prove God exists...but what makes it an absolute impossibility that he did not talk to God? How could you know that?

        That is the point.
        Go Gophers!

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        • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

          Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
          OK...help me understand.

          I can't prove God exists...but what makes it an absolute impossibility that he did not talk to God? How could you know that?

          That is the point.
          Your point is a logical fallacy.
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          • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
            Your point is a logical fallacy.
            Your typical schtick is to post the 'look at how the Christian is wrong' article - primarily because you need to say something and I've never seen you post anything positive about atheism. So in posting:

            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
            Heaven is for re--- eh, maybe not so much.
            I assume you're saying 'there is no way that this guy could have talked to God'. Or are you now saying 'yeah, this guy could well have talked to God'? Or are you saying you can't defend your position either way...so you better not have one.
            Go Gophers!

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            • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

              Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
              I assume you're saying 'there is no way that this guy could have talked to God'. Or are you now saying 'yeah, this guy could well have talked to God'? Or are you saying you can't defend your position either way...so you better not have one.
              Ah, the old "if you don't respond to my attack then you're admitting you're wrong!" gambit, a.k.a. the FreshFishFourthgradeFake. But sure, I'll play.

              I'm not saying "there's no way this guy talked to God," for the simple reason that you can't prove a negative. I am saying "here we have a completely credible, natural explanation for an effect that corresponds to everything else we know about reality." This contrasts with a completely supernatural explanation which is popular enough to have a silly fantasy film made about it.

              But hey...

              The desire to communicate with god is as old as the concept of god. It's worth taking seriously enough not to fall for our brains' parlor tricks. The fact that confused people mistake their psychotic breaks with an experience with god doesn't necessarily mean all people claiming divine experiences were wackjobs. But there are wackjobs, and it helps nobody to feed their delusions.
              Last edited by Kepler; 05-18-2016, 09:35 AM.
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              • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                Uhhh... isn't that one of the four horsemen... http://www.newsma*****/Newsfront/pop.../17/id/729254/

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                • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                  Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                  Ah, the old "if you don't respond to my attack then you're admitting you're wrong!" gambit, a.k.a. the FreshFishFourthgradeFake. But sure, I'll play.

                  I'm not saying "there's no way this guy talked to God," for the simple reason that you can't prove a negative. I am saying "here we have a completely credible, natural explanation for an effect that corresponds to everything else we know about reality." This contrasts with a completely supernatural explanation which is popular enough to have a silly fantasy film made about it.

                  But hey...

                  The desire to communicate with god is as old as the concept of god. It's worth taking seriously enough not to fall for our brains' parlor tricks. The fact that confused people mistake their psychotic breaks with an experience with god doesn't necessarily mean all people claiming divine experiences were wackjobs. But there are wackjobs, and it helps nobody to feed their delusions.
                  Its already a well documented fact that when a religious person prays (i.e., a passive talk with God) their brain activity increases. Why couldn't this guy's brain activity change when he actively talked to God?

                  If the article's position were published in a medical journal, the publication would be a laughingstock. Swearing on a cause from one symptomatic data point is always terrible science.
                  Go Gophers!

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                  • Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                    Its already a well documented fact that when a religious person prays (i.e., a passive talk with God) their brain activity increases.
                    Using one's brain causes brain activity to increase? NSS.

                    Next you'll tell me that people engaged in meditation or studying for a test causes brain activity to increase as well...

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                    • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                      Originally posted by FlagDUDE08 View Post
                      Uhhh... isn't that one of the four horsemen... http://www.newsma*****/Newsfront/pop.../17/id/729254/
                      I was gonna say no but turns out that not everybody agrees on Pestilence/War/Famine/Death. Sometimes Pestilence is... Conquest. Thanks!
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                      • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                        Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                        Its already a well documented fact that when a religious person prays (i.e., a passive talk with God) their brain activity increases. Why couldn't this guy's brain activity change when he actively talked to God?

                        If the article's position were published in a medical journal, the publication would be a laughingstock. Swearing on a cause from one symptomatic data point is always terrible science.
                        Not all brain waves look the same. Seizures have distinct characteristics, thinking causes a different type of brain wave.

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                        • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                          5mn, do you see atheism as a repudiation of something that is good?

                          I know that is a very vague question, but while I cannot speak for others, I don't think those of us who do not believe in the existence of a supernatural god see that as a repudiation of any good that might come from any particular religious faith or from religious faith in general. But it seems that believers tend not to see it that way.

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                          • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                            Originally posted by burd View Post
                            5mn, do you see atheism as a repudiation of something that is good?

                            I know that is a very vague question, but while I cannot speak for others, I don't think those of us who do not believe in the existence of a supernatural god see that as a repudiation of any good that might come from any particular religious faith or from religious faith in general. But it seems that believers tend not to see it that way.
                            I think many believers view atheism as a direct challenge, and as such react defensively and sometimes aggressively. It also tends to come across in the mistaken idea that atheism is "just another faith," in, say, science. It's as if the Monarchist must seek a king somewhere; a world without one is too alien.

                            It makes sense that if you build a significant portion of your identity around something, then far more irksome than someone saying "x is bad" is someone saying "x is nothing." This again seems to be behind some believers' apparently incurable conflation of atheism with anti-theism.

                            Also, most religious people took their faith from someone/something intimate -- a parent, a close friend, a much valued mentor. Atheists are then perceived as somehow attacking or at least diminishing that intimate thing by essentially saying "that's all very well but the message that person passed on to you literally means nothing to me." Monotheists in particular aren't equipped to deal with this, since their world is a Manichean struggle between those who accept X and everybody else. I suspect polytheists and pantheists have a lot less trouble understanding atheists.

                            But it's not insuperable. There are many amazing theists out there who understand atheism completely. Charles Taylor is one; Alasdair MacIntyre is another. Now, granted, they are both geniuses , so it kinda makes sense that they can see around corners better than most. But it does mean it's possible for people with and without faith to respect one another and not reflexively merely overwrite the other with a strawman persona in order to win some pen-s measuring contest that says more about them than the subject.
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                            • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                              Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                              I was gonna say no but turns out that not everybody agrees on Pestilence/War/Famine/Death. Sometimes Pestilence is... Conquest. Thanks!
                              I thought the same thing too, but that's because you don't get a Cube of Meat (or Ball of Bandages) in The Binding of Isaac game if you fight Conquest.

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                              • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                                Originally posted by FlagDUDE08 View Post
                                I thought the same thing too, but that's because you don't get a Cube of Meat (or Ball of Bandages) in The Binding of Isaac game if you fight Conquest.
                                I thought about checking that out. Now I'm pretty sure I have to.
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