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  • #91
    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    If it harms no one, do it.
    Protect the weak from the strong.
    CCT '77 & '78
    4 kids
    5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
    1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

    ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
    - Benjamin Franklin

    Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

    I want to live forever. So far, so good.

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

      Atheists can't truly have a directive. They aren't an organized entity. To be one they would have to be, well, a religion. That isn't happening. I realize religious organizations have done great things with charity. But a lot of people seem to think no atheist has. There are a lot of atheists out there that have been or are great philanthropists.

      I'm an atheist, but I don't try to stop other people from believing. I just try to stop people from writing their beliefs into laws I'm then forced to follow.
      the state of hockey is good

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

        I believe in the Man in the Sky and that He has many human traits. For one, He knows hockey and is tickled pink that North Dakota finally got it done this year. He stayed out of it, though, which made it even sweeter for Him.

        He did have a hand in BC losing though, which, to the extent He can have guilty pleasures, was one.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
          You don't subscribe that faith in any permutation has the ability to provide more positive outcomes than realism?
          I don't. I literally believe that the world would be a better place if our ancestors had never invented super-human dieties to justify the depraved disfunctions in our lizard brains. Want sexual dominance over women? No problem - they're inferior, flawed creations who can't keep their paws off an apple I just invented. Want ti own slaves? Piece of cake - the man in the sky put the imaginary mark of Cain on them and said it's ok. Sexually frustrated in this life? No worries - I'll make up a story about 72 virgins in the afterlife if you just go murder a bunch of people. And on, and on.

          Religion perpetuates divisions into us vs. them, which retards human progress, period. Any anecdotes of "positive personal outcomes" are meaningless, random fluctuations superimposed over an overwhelmingly nevative bias signal.

          Find me a rational atheist in favor of one of those homophobic bathroom bills, and then we can talk.
          If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

            Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
            I don't. I literally believe that the world would be a better place if our ancestors had never invented super-human dieties to justify the depraved disfunctions in our lizard brains. Want sexual dominance over women? No problem - they're inferior, flawed creations who can't keep their paws off an apple I just invented. Want ti own slaves? Piece of cake - the man in the sky put the imaginary mark of Cain on them and said it's ok. Sexually frustrated in this life? No worries - I'll make up a story about 72 virgins in the afterlife if you just go murder a bunch of people. And on, and on.

            Religion perpetuates divisions into us vs. them, which retards human progress, period. Any anecdotes of "positive personal outcomes" are meaningless, random fluctuations superimposed over an overwhelmingly nevative bias signal.

            Find me a rational atheist in favor of one of those homophobic bathroom bills, and then we can talk.
            I'm not surprised that that is your personal opinion. But the general point your trying to claim is impossible to substantiate. I'd love to hear the Jesus (i.e., God) passage that results in any of the behavior you claim. I won't either. Because Jesus, the Word, was against everything you claim that its for.

            So how's the world without faith? The scientific method says 'lets test it' and technically we did. Your preferred world existed before the Bible was printed and disseminated. And it was horrible. It took faith based leaders to change it...and they did from slavery to healthcare to child labor to charity to equal representation and civil rights.

            'That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures. I think that if anything can be proved by natural theology, it is that slavery is morally wrong.'

            Abraham Lincoln
            Go Gophers!

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

              You really think that the world before the Bible was fully rational, free from faith or superstition? Is that you, Alicia Silverstone?

              How in the world do you think that quote supports your thesis that your personal interpretation of the Christian religion is the sine qua non of human progress, when clealy Lincoln did just fine without it?
              If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                I'm not surprised that that is your personal opinion. But the general point your trying to claim is impossible to substantiate. I'd love to hear the Jesus (i.e., God) passage that results in any of the behavior you claim. I won't either. Because Jesus, the Word, was against everything you claim that its for.

                So how's the world without faith? The scientific method says 'lets test it' and technically we did. Your preferred world existed before the Bible was printed and disseminated. And it was horrible. It took faith based leaders to change it...and they did from slavery to healthcare to child labor to charity to equal representation and civil rights.

                'That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures. I think that if anything can be proved by natural theology, it is that slavery is morally wrong.'

                Abraham Lincoln
                The world before the Bible simply used different heavenly voices to disseminate their reasons for the rain, sun, lightning and storms. In fact, they were highly organized for the technology available to them at the time.

                Besides, Lincoln shows that you can live a perfectly civilized life, and actually be THE leader to end slavery in this nation, WITHOUT use of the Bible or Jesus.
                "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                  As soon as I asked you to validate your stance with any Jesus (i.e., God) passages that supported your position...the below general position faded in a hurry:

                  Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
                  I don't. I literally believe that the world would be a better place if our ancestors had never invented super-human dieties to justify the depraved disfunctions in our lizard brains. Want sexual dominance over women? No problem - they're inferior, flawed creations who can't keep their paws off an apple I just invented. Want ti own slaves? Piece of cake - the man in the sky put the imaginary mark of Cain on them and said it's ok. Sexually frustrated in this life? No worries - I'll make up a story about 72 virgins in the afterlife if you just go murder a bunch of people. And on, and on.
                  Lincoln was not spiritual?

                  'It is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation should be on the Lord's side'

                  Abraham Lincoln

                  Guys please. I find that non believers who say 'realism' is the only thing that matter seem to have frequent difficulty with facts.
                  Go Gophers!

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                    Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                    As soon as I asked you to validate your stance with any Jesus (i.e., God) passages that supported your position...the below general position faded in a hurry:
                    Again, since the vast majority of Christianity believes the entire Bible is the Word of God, and a substantial portion believes it is literally true, I can point to numerous passages in the Old Testament and even parts of the New Testament that would support those acts. You don't even have to go that far; the Adam and Eve origin story in Genesis has been used for millennia to justify treating women as evil temptresses.

                    That you believe Jesus' own words (as written by four men and re-written countless times by other men) are the end all be all of Christianity is great for you, but you're also not what most people would consider a mainstream Christian, so I wish you'd stop pretending you speak for all of Christendom. And I thought we were talking generically about faith versus realism as a whole; I didn't realize we had to tailor it to your individual beliefs.

                    Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                    Your preferred world existed before the Bible was printed and disseminated. And it was horrible. It took faith based leaders to change it...and they did from slavery to healthcare to child labor to charity to equal representation and civil rights.
                    Oh, and let's not forget this nugget. If you don't think that faith existed long before Christianity was even a gleam in the eye of the disciples' great, great, great, great grandparents or that there were faith based leaders leading the charge at various points in time, then you really need to take a history lesson. Or hell, just read the Bible and remember that Jesus was himself a Jew. And, as I've said throughout this thread, faith at those times was both a force for good and evil, so let's not pretend that Christianity is somehow unique above all other faiths in establishing morals.
                    Last edited by unofan; 05-08-2016, 07:34 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                      Great, at least somebody's participating.

                      Originally posted by unofan View Post
                      Again, since the vast majority of Christianity believes the entire Bible is the Word of God, and a substantial portion believes it is literally true, I can point to numerous passages in the Old Testament and even parts of the New Testament that would support those acts. You don't even have to go that far; the Adam and Eve origin story in Genesis has been used for millennia to justify treating women as evil temptresses.

                      That you believe Jesus' own words (as written by four men and re-written countless times by other men) are the end all be all of Christianity is great for you, but you're also not what most people would consider a mainstream Christian, so I wish you'd stop pretending you speak for all of Christendom. And I thought we were talking generically about faith versus realism as a whole; I didn't realize we had to tailor it to your individual beliefs.
                      Your position is not based in fact. Per a Gallup poll, 28% of Americans say that the Bible is literal. And only 9% believes 'that absolute moral truth exists; the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches; Satan is considered to be a real being or force, not merely symbolic; a person cannot earn their way into Heaven by trying to be good or do good works; Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; and God is the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of the world who still rules the universe today.' (Barna)

                      On the other hand, a CBS poll has 68% of Americans believing that Jesus is God or the son of God. Also Wikipedia, the most scrutinized definition in the world, defines Christianity as ' based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as presented in the New Testament.'

                      Looks like your position that we should put details of the Old Testament ahead of Jesus' Word doesn't hold any water.

                      Originally posted by unofan View Post
                      If you don't think that faith existed long before Christianity was even a gleam in the eye of the disciples' great, great, great, great grandparents or that there were faith based leaders leading the charge at various points in time, then you really need to take a history lesson. Or hell, just read the Bible and remember that Jesus was himself a Jew. And, as I've said throughout this thread, faith at those times was both a force for good and evil, so let's not pretend that Christianity is somehow unique above all other faiths in establishing morals.
                      My pov was that Christianity added a large variety of benefits by itself (still haven't seen anyone refute that). I freely add that other religions add value too. If you're posing that other religions are adding lots of value too, it doesn't bode well for Lynah's position that faith has not added any value...and even yours' that Realism is always more important than Faith.

                      Hmm...I'm seeing faiths but not Atheism in your credit for societal progress and morality. Why's that?
                      Go Gophers!

                      Comment


                      • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                        Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                        Great, at least somebody's participating.



                        Your position is not based in fact. Per a Gallup poll, 28% of Americans say that the Bible is literal. And only 9% believes 'that absolute moral truth exists; the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches; Satan is considered to be a real being or force, not merely symbolic; a person cannot earn their way into Heaven by trying to be good or do good works; Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; and God is the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of the world who still rules the universe today.' (Barna)

                        On the other hand, a CBS poll has 68% of Americans believing that Jesus is God or the son of God. Also Wikipedia, the most scrutinized definition in the world, defines Christianity as ' based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as presented in the New Testament.'

                        Looks like your position that we should put details of the Old Testament ahead of Jesus' Word doesn't hold any water.



                        My pov was that Christianity added a large variety of benefits by itself (still haven't seen anyone refute that). I freely add that other religions add value too. If you're posing that other religions are adding lots of value too, it doesn't bode well for Lynah's position that faith has not added any value...and even yours' that Realism is always more important than Faith.

                        Hmm...I'm seeing faiths but not Atheism in your credit for societal progress and morality. Why's that?
                        5mn,

                        How essential is theism to your Christian philosophy?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                          Your position is not based in fact. Per a Gallup poll, 28% of Americans say that the Bible is literal. And only 9% believes 'that absolute moral truth exists; the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches; Satan is considered to be a real being or force, not merely symbolic; a person cannot earn their way into Heaven by trying to be good or do good works; Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; and God is the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of the world who still rules the universe today.' (Barna)
                          A quarter of Americans isn't substantial? That's more than the number of people who voted for Trump in the primaries.
                          Looks like your position that we should put details of the Old Testament ahead of Jesus' Word doesn't hold any water.
                          I didn't say ahead of, but again, most Christians believe in the whole Bible, not just select parts. But that's neither here nor there. I'm not going to down that path again. I thought we're talking faith vs. realism, not the definition of Christianity (for the umpteenth time)
                          My pov was that Christianity added a large variety of benefits by itself (still haven't seen anyone refute that). I freely add that other religions add value too. If you're posing that other religions are adding lots of value too, it doesn't bode well for Lynah's position that faith has not added any value...and even yours' that Realism is always more important than Faith.
                          I didn't say that. I said that faith is not better than realism. Again, they are different means to the same end.

                          Hmm...I'm seeing faiths but not Atheism in your credit for societal progress and morality. Why's that?
                          Because throughout history, and even today in many countries, heresy is a capital crime and people generally like keeping their heads? We've had this discussion before too. It's also not surprising that 90% of advancements in this country were made by Christians when Christians made up 90% of the population until very recently.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                            Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                            Well said.

                            In fact, I would extend that point to the benefits of the average non believer evaluating the role faith might play for themselves. As in...if anyone is truly interested in the welfare of others, wouldn't that person want and encourage a non believer to evaluate faith to see if it can truly improve their life? If so, then why do atheists spend so much energy trying to discourage others from the potential of improving their lives? In the end, where are atheist priorities?
                            It seems to me that "faith" is the internal experience, while what "matters" is external: how we behave toward each other. "Don't lie, don't take things that don't belong to you, don't deliberately try to hurt others out of meanness and spite." You don't have to have "faith" to behave that way, just a moral compass and sense of ethics.

                            However you get the moral compass and sense of ethics is up to you; what matters to everyone else is that you display them all day every day. There is a scholarly philosophical article that argues that one does not have to have faith at all to have ethics and morals. I posted a link earlier in this thread but I can't find it readily now. the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has a whole section on this topic. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/natural-law-ethics/
                            "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                            "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                            "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                            "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

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                            • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                              Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
                              This. Claiming that atheism brings nothing to the table for humans, whereas faith - living how you're told to live because a deity and/or his prophet says this is the only way - somehow does, is the kind of logic I expect from someone who has to justify his entire existence by believing in a higher power. Someone who is too unimaginative to consider the alternatives.
                              There is no reason to tear down someone else's attempt to live a good life just because you don't agree with his motivations. What works for some people doesn't work for others.

                              As I noted a few times, people argue over the "why" when the only thing most of us care about is the "what": that you behave well toward others in society.
                              "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                              "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                              "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                              "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                              Comment


                              • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                                Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
                                Maybe it is because Faith tends to have a set of beliefs or rules that are laid out where as Atheists are not [necessarily] an organized entity and [some] are defined more by what they do not believe rather than what they believe. Not saying that [all] Atheists bring nothing but more that they are stand alone vs a structured organization. (If not, then I stand corrected)
                                There actually is something that resembles an organized orthodoxy for atheists to justify why right and wrong are important and why we ought to care for each other even without having to have a Deity tell us to.
                                "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                                "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                                "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                                "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

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