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  • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    Just to be clear. My point is not that not that we need to adopt or ignore the Old Testament 100%...its along the lines of what you say. I was proposing at the development of the Biblical canon in 300AD: do you as a human exclude the OT and its forever lost? Or do you include it so that all of the references are included and give readers the option of having the OT as well as the Gospels? I am proposing you of course would include it and give folks the rest of the story. Having access to the OT is worth the risk of some putting it ahead of the Gospels. Yes, its the message and not the minutia.



    I still do not find this to be the case about atheists. For starters, how many atheists hang their disbelief on the OT? Lots. IMO that's a fairly superficial position and ignores the nature of Christianity. And most don't get that faith provides an invaluable, positive tool for the individual for the purpose of aiding in solving life's problems. Nor do they understand the incredible motivation it has and continues to provide in the improvement of society. I look this up every year, but somewhere around 80% of the top 20 charities are Christian based with the outcomes of saving tens of thousands of lives every year. I could go on and on and on. Christians typically get all this practically instinctually.



    Yeah, I know there's a lot of propaganda out there that Christians really don't give. The United Way, the Salvation Army, St. Judes, Food for the Poor. In addition to many surveys that show Christians give more, large faith based or faith originated charities provide a surprisingly large amount of charitable giving in the US. The only thing I can figure is that people set ridiculous standards of Christians being expected to do 90% of all charitable giving.

    http://www.forbes.com/top-charities/
    I think Kep has eloquently addressed this. It might help for you to open your mind and entertain the possibility that not all people who don't believe start from a position of belief and then look for disclaimers. If they don't believe, the Bible may not come into the equation, superficial or not. My personal experience is non-believers give way less thought to why they don't believe than you do. For many it is a non-issue that they don't think about at all. I expect if you discuss God with non believers the way you try to here they probably are fairly reactionary. You apparently spend a great deal of time thinking you are empathizing but doing so from your own point of view. I am a believer who does a fair amount of thinking about my faith and I find your assumptions to be no where near what I think.

    How does this:
    In my area there are way more acts of generosity, etc from secular organizations than churches or faith based groups. On the other hand there are all sorts of silly movements spawned by Faith based organizations to tell people how to live their lives (the Christian version of Sharia law).
    translate into Christians don't give? I have no idea what 'propaganda' you are reading but you are arguing apples and oranges. What I said was In my area most of the organizations doing the bulk of good are secular. That doesn't mean Christians aren't giving. It means people do not need to be Christian to be motivated to do good for their fellow human.

    Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    How I see this Guys, this is really simple. Jesus is God. He corrected the OT as needed and set the record straight. His Word as God trumps the balance of the Bible. By definition, His concepts are what matters for Christians. Whether you believe so or not, faith improves many lives by giving those strength, companionship and a code to live by. Violence in faith as a percentage is tiny...and therefore, a causal correlation of faith to violence does not exist. Positive outcomes driven by faith based motivations have included major changes in society including charity, healthcare, civil rights, slavery, etc...and no its not the only giving, but Christianity continues to dominate charitable giving and organization. Sorry, but atheists get all that wrong.
    FYP. You have an insular, constricted view of the world.

    Originally posted by Kepler View Post
    OK. I give up.
    Every once in a while I forget that I should say this before I post.

    Originally posted by joecct View Post
    As somebody once wrote: "I do not question the Word of God, only what man has made of it."
    That about sums it up.
    Last edited by leswp1; 05-10-2016, 06:53 PM.

    Comment


    • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

      Originally posted by unofun View Post
      See, you lose me here because now you're all but saying your version of Christianity is the correct one [for him, absolutely; however, not necessarily for anyone else].
      FYP so that it is now clear to you what he means.

      What part of "my journey" (my= 5mn_Major first person) wasn't clear before?


      It sounds like, for him, it is a nourishing and sustaining poetry. Why would that bother you? What makes it so hard to be happy for him to have found something that gives so much meaning to him?

      Not once did he say you also should adopt his viewpoint, IIRC....
      Last edited by FreshFish; 05-10-2016, 06:18 PM.
      "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

      "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

      "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

      "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

      Comment


      • Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
        Not once did he say you also should adopt his viewpoint, IIRC....
        No, he just says any other view point is categorically wrong, which has the same effect.

        I've gone out of my way to say that whatever works for him is great (if you had kept reading the post you quoted, you'd have seen that), but he seems intent on saying it's his way or the wrong way.
        Last edited by unofan; 05-10-2016, 06:32 PM.

        Comment


        • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

          Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
          Not once did he say you also should adopt his viewpoint, IIRC....
          He's not using those words, but that's exactly what he's said throughout all of these threads.
          "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

          "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

          "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

          Comment


          • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

            Originally posted by unofun View Post
            he seems intent on saying it's his way or the wrong way.
            Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
            He's not using those words, but that's exactly what he's said throughout all of these threads.

            hmm...it seemed to me more like the enthusiasm of anyone who found something new and exciting in his life, eager to share the news about how wonderful it was, and why everyone else should try it too.

            "Hey, I just saw the greatest movie ever! you should go see it too! here, I'll even buy you a ticket!"

            To me that doesn't come across as "I'm right and you are wrong" but maybe we can just agree to disagree. I don't think that his "movie" is nearly as great as he makes it out to be either, but having dealt with plenty of zealots in my time, I see nothing to be gained by trying to dampen his enthusiasm. From the right perspective it can even be a bit endearing. It is a decent movie, far far better than "agree with me, or pay me tribute, or I'll kill you." I just happen to enjoy eastern cinema a lot more.
            Last edited by FreshFish; 05-11-2016, 01:46 PM.
            "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

            "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

            "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

            "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

            Comment


            • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

              One thing about born-again Christians that does bug me is their insistence that Jesus is the "only" Son of God.

              Why the exclusivity?

              The Buddha was nearly as influential and just as divinely inspired, for example....and as far as I can tell, Jesus himself never claimed exclusivity. it reads more like, "I am a Son of God" and the "only" was appended later on by an overzealous translator who thought s/he was "improving" the original.
              "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

              "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

              "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

              "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

              Comment


              • Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                One thing about born-again Christians that does bug me is their insistence that Jesus is the "only" Son of God.

                Why the exclusivity?

                The Buddha was nearly as influential and just as divinely inspired, for example....and as far as I can tell, Jesus himself never claimed exclusivity. it reads more like, "I am a Son of God" and the "only" was appended later on by an overzealous translator who thought s/he was "improving" the original.
                It's not only born again Christians. As a Roman Catholic I believe Jesus is God's only Son.

                However, I urge you to read Charles Sailor's "Second Son".
                CCT '77 & '78
                4 kids
                5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                - Benjamin Franklin

                Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                I want to live forever. So far, so good.

                Comment


                • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                  Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                  One thing about born-again Christians that does bug me is their insistence that Jesus is the "only" Son of God.

                  Why the exclusivity?

                  The Buddha was nearly as influential and just as divinely inspired, for example....and as far as I can tell, Jesus himself never claimed exclusivity. it reads more like, "I am a Son of God" and the "only" was appended later on by an overzealous translator who thought s/he was "improving" the original.
                  Monty Python already released "Life of Brian" some years ago now.
                  "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                  "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                  "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

                  Comment


                  • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                    Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
                    FYP. You have an insular, constricted view of the world.
                    So as you disagree with what I posted, you must believe:

                    Jesus is not God.

                    Jesus did not correct the OT as needed and took it without change.

                    Jesus Word as God is no more important than balance of the Bible.

                    By definition, His concepts don't really matter for Christians.

                    Faith does not improve lives by giving those strength, companionship and a code to live by.

                    Violence in faith as a percentage is large...and therefore, a causal correlation of faith to violence does exist.
                    Go Gophers!

                    Comment


                    • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                      Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                      .and as far as I can tell, Jesus himself never claimed exclusivity. it reads more like, "I am a Son of God" and the "only" was appended later on by an overzealous translator who thought s/he was "improving" the original.
                      John 14:6

                      Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

                      Even as Catholics, and thus utterly ignorant of scripture ( ) we got the message that either you get right with Christ or you take the train.

                      Matthew 7:14

                      Straight is the gate and narrow is the way, and without Him you are f-cked. (I'm paraphrasing)
                      Last edited by Kepler; 05-11-2016, 02:59 PM.
                      Cornell University
                      National Champion 1967, 1970
                      ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                      Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

                      Comment


                      • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                        Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                        So as you disagree with what I posted, you must believe:

                        Jesus is not God.

                        Jesus did not correct the OT as needed and took it without change.

                        Jesus Word as God is no more important than balance of the Bible.

                        By definition, His concepts don't really matter for Christians.

                        Faith does not improve lives by giving those strength, companionship and a code to live by.

                        Violence in faith as a percentage is large...and therefore, a causal correlation of faith to violence does exist.
                        Intentionally obtuse or does it just come naturally for you on this subject? She didn't say everything you posted is wrong.
                        "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                        "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                        "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

                        Comment


                        • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                          With 5mn, it's all or nothing - all the time.
                          If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

                          Comment


                          • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                            Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
                            I think Kep has eloquently addressed this.
                            Is that before or after he called your God 'Jeebus'?

                            Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                            She didn't say everything you posted is wrong.
                            No, but evidently the crux of it is wrong.
                            Go Gophers!

                            Comment


                            • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                              Here's an interesting quote:

                              There is irrefutable evidence that the past existed, but everything else about the past is hearsay.
                              CCT '77 & '78
                              4 kids
                              5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                              1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                              ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                              - Benjamin Franklin

                              Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                              I want to live forever. So far, so good.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                                Originally posted by joecct View Post
                                There is irrefutable evidence that the past existed
                                Don't you run that sh-t past J. M. E. McTaggart unless you're looking for a fight.
                                Cornell University
                                National Champion 1967, 1970
                                ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                                Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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