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  • Originally posted by net presence View Post
    Sic...as a lifelong outdoorsman and hunter, along with being a 23 year military vet who earned a "marksman' badge with the M-16 (military AR-15), I can honestly say there is absolutely zero reason any civilian needs to own that weapon or, any knockoff of it. Yes, it's a "semi-automatic" weapon. However, as numerous ER docs will attest, and the actual history of that weapon's design and introduction will reveal, the key difference compared to other semi-auto rifles is the significantly higher muzzle velocity of the AR-15. Below I provide links to three recent articles that will likely inform and enlighten many commenting here, including those like Sic and Hovey. The AR-15, along with numerous others, should be banned from civilian ownership. PERIOD. Along with limiting any magazine to 10 rounds at most. To Hovey and Sic, I challenge you to read all three of the following articles from start to finish and then come back here and make a rational, fact-based argument why these types of weapons shouldn't be banned.

    Rolling Stone article from 2018...

    https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...choice-107819/

    The first paragraph says it all...

    The AR-15 assault rifle was engineered to create what one of its designers called “maximum wound effect.” Its tiny bullets – needle-nosed and weighing less than four grams – travel nearly three times the speed of sound. As the bullet strikes the body, the payload of kinetic energy rips open a cavity inside the flesh – essentially inert space – which collapses back on itself, destroying inelastic tissue, including nerves, blood vessels and vital organs. “It’s a perfect killing machine,” says Dr. Peter Rhee, a leading trauma surgeon and retired captain with 24 years of active-duty service in the Navy.

    Here's another article from NBC News... The Parkland Shooter's AR-15 Was Designed to Kill As Efficiently As Possible

    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...ble-ncna848346

    The killing potential of a gun is primarily based on the amount of energy imparted by the bullet when it strikes the body. The bullet’s kinetic energy is equal to half of the bullet weight multiplied by the speed of the bullet when fired, squared — in other words, the velocity that a gun can impart on a bullet is the dominant factor in determining its killing potential.

    The 9mm handgun is generally regarded as an effective weapon; its bullet travels at 1,200 feet per second and delivers a kinetic energy of 400 foot pounds. By comparison, the standard AR-15 bullet travels at 3,251 feet per second and delivers 1300 foot pounds.

    Tissue destruction of the AR-15 is further enhanced by cavitation, which is the destruction of tissue beyond the direct pathway of the bullet; this occurs with high velocity bullets because their kinetic energies are over 2,500 foot pounds.
    https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/i...08-2330211.jpgAR-15 semi-automatic guns are on display for sale in Springville, Utah.George Frey / Getty Images
    To compare again, a typical 9mm handgun wound to the liver will produce a pathway of tissue destruction in the order of 1-2 inches. In comparison, an AR-15 round to the liver will literally pulverize it, much like dropping a watermelon onto concrete results in the destruction of the watermelon. Wounds like this, as one sees in school shootings like Sandy Hook and Parkland where AR-15s were used, have high fatality rates.

    The AR-15 is, by design, easier to shoot accurately and rapidly than a a typical hunting rifle because it mitigates recoil. The standard AR-15 bullet, as previously stated, carries kinetic energy of 1300 foot pounds; a typical hunting rifle bullet has between 2600 and 4000 foot pounds, meaning it has greater recoil. The excessive recoil of a hunting rifle precludes rapid firing on target, because of the obligatory motion of the gun and its impact on the shooter. But the moderate energy of the AR-15 allows shooting on target literally as rapidly as the trigger can be pulled, while providing ample bullet speed to inflict lethal wounds.

    Here's another from The Atlantic.... POLITICS What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns They weren’t the first mass-shooting victims the Florida radiologist saw—but their wounds were radically different.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...n-guns/553937/

    "In a typical handgun injury, which I diagnose almost daily, a bullet leaves a laceration through an organ such as the liver. To a radiologist, it appears as a linear, thin, gray bullet track through the organ. There may be bleeding and some bullet fragments. I was looking at a CT scan of one of the mass-shooting victims from Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, and was bleeding extensively. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage? The reaction in the emergency room was the same. One of the trauma surgeons opened a young victim in the operating room, and found only shreds of the organ that had been hit by a bullet from an AR-15, a semiautomatic rifle that delivers a devastatingly lethal, high-velocity bullet to the victim. Nothing was left to repair—and utterly, devastatingly, nothing could be done to fix the problem. The injury was fatal."

    "A year ago, when a gunman opened fire at the Fort Lauderdale airport with a 9 mm semiautomatic handgun, hitting 11 people in 90 seconds, I was also on call. It was not until I had diagnosed the third of the six victims who were transported to the trauma center that I realized something out of the ordinary must have happened. The gunshot wounds were the same low-velocity handgun injuries that I diagnose every day; only their rapid succession set them apart. And all six of the victims who arrived at the hospital that day survived."

    "The bullet from an AR-15 passes through the body like a cigarette boat traveling at maximum speed through a tiny canal. The tissue next to the bullet is elastic—moving away from the bullet like waves of water displaced by the boat—and then returns and settles back. This process is called cavitation; it leaves the displaced tissue damaged or killed. The high-velocity bullet causes a swath of tissue damage that extends several inches from its path. It does not have to actually hit an artery to damage it and cause catastrophic bleeding. Exit wounds can be the size of an orange. With an AR-15, the shooter does not have to be particularly accurate. The victim does not have to be unlucky. If a victim takes a direct hit to the liver from an AR-15, the damage is far graver than that of a simple handgun-shot injury. Handgun injuries to the liver are generally survivable unless the bullet hits the main blood supply to the liver. An AR-15 bullet wound to the middle of the liver would cause so much bleeding that the patient would likely never make it to the trauma center to receive our care."

    "If politicians want to back comprehensive mental-health reform, I am all for it. As a medical doctor, I’ve witnessed firsthand the toll that mental-health issues take on families and on individuals themselves who have no access to satisfactory long-term mental-health care. But the president and Congress should not use this issue as an excuse to deliberately overlook the fact that the use of AR-15 rifles is the common denominator in many mass shootings.

    A medical professor taught me about the dangers of drawing incorrect conclusions from data, using the example of gum chewing, smokers, and lung cancer. He said smokers may be more likely to chew gum to cover bad breath, but one cannot look at the data and decide that gum chewing causes lung cancer. It is the same type of erroneous logic that focuses on mental health after mass shootings, when banning the sale of semiautomatic rifles would be a far more effective means of preventing them."

    I await your responses....











    I actually was on the road, having gone to the Indy 500 this past weekend, so somehow I missed that this lengthy post was apparently directed to me, and not to just Sic.

    With respect to the comparative killing power of a long rifle versus a handgun, I do not dispute that a load delivered by a long rifle can be substantially greater than that delivered by a handgun. Personally I'd prefer not to be shot by either, but maybe that's just me.

    I'll let Sic speak for himself, but I think one of the arguments/questions that are raised is what is the difference between banning a semi-automatic AR style rifle versus a semi-automatic rifle of a different style.

    I personally happen to own a Browning BAR 30.06 caliber rifle that was a gift to me about 40 years ago. I don't think I've shot it in 30 years, but I still have a pretty good recollection of its workings.

    The "BAR" of the rifle's name stands for "Browning Automatic Rifle" even though it's action is technically "semi-automatic" requiring a separate trigger pull for each shot fired.

    It had as its origins the rifle designed by John Browning for use during WWI, although it really didn't go into heavy use until WWII and the Korean War. After the wars a civilian version was designed to look less scary and more like a traditional hunting rifle, so that it looks something like the version produced today.

    I can assure you that as a semi-automatic rifle, the recoil on the weapon is substantially less than that of a more traditional bolt action rifle or lever action rifle, both of which I also own.

    The one thing that I can assure you is that my 30.06 is every bit as capable of mass carnage as an AR-15.

    However, mine has sat in the closet for 30 years, collecting dust.

    To me there is one and only one difference between an AR-15 and a more "standard" semi-automatic hunting rifle like mine. The AR-15 looks like a military machine gun. It's not, but it looks like something a GI Joe or Rambo or someone would carry, so maybe it's that appearance that is the evil part of it. Maybe we should just make all AR-15's be pink in color, or something.

    But from a mechanical workings standpoint, or a deadliness standpoint, there is no difference between an AR-15 and my BAR.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
      Maybe we should just make all AR-15's be pink in color, or something.
      I've actually seen one. And yes, I chuckled.

      The preceding post may contain trigger words and is not safe-space approved. <-- Virtue signaling.

      North Dakota Hockey:

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      • Houston woman shoots her 5 year old while aiming for an unleashed puppy jfc

        **** this country

        https://mobile.twitter.com/shannonrw...06790003728384

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
          Houston woman shoots her 5 year old while aiming for an unleashed puppy jfc

          **** this country

          https://mobile.twitter.com/shannonrw...06790003728384
          Darwin rocks.
          Cornell University
          National Champion 1967, 1970
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          • I thought republicans wanted mental health funding?

            haha just kidding

            “GOP Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis made controversial budget cuts on Wednesday, notably removing $900,000 in funding for state programs geared toward serving the LGBTQ+ population, including one that provides mental health programs to survivors of the Pulse nightclub shooting from 2016.”

            Comment


            • That guy needs to have the Meth Heads find him...
              "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
              -aparch

              "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
              -INCH

              Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
              -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

              Comment


              • Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post

                I've actually seen one. And yes, I chuckled.
                Sic, what about my challenge to you? Are you going to respond? As for your response Hovey...Reread (or, just read) the articles presented. Your 30.06 does not create nearly the same types of catastrophic damage to flesh as the AR.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
                  Houston woman shoots her 5 year old while aiming for an unleashed puppy jfc

                  **** this country

                  https://mobile.twitter.com/shannonrw...06790003728384
                  pew pew!!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Slap Shot View Post

                    pew pew!!
                    At least the five year old probably deserved it more than the puppy I guess?
                    the state of hockey is good

                    Comment


                    • Nah it would have been better if the bich shot herself...or the tire of her bike and she crashed.
                      "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                      -aparch

                      "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                      -INCH

                      Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                      -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by net presence View Post

                        Sic, what about my challenge to you? Are you going to respond?
                        I did. You must've missed the part where I said, "It appears the issue you see is with high velocity, low recoil ammunition (see: .223), and not as much the AR per se."

                        I offer that as the rationale to eliminate an ammunition that meets your trifecta of concerns, namely, high velocity, high penetration, and low recoil. Blindly addressing the platform (the AR) is not addressing your issue.

                        Why not call for all future ARs to be manufactured as true big game rifles, calibered in .308, and not calibered in the .223 varmint round.

                        From an article you provided, my posit, no more ARs in .223, would address your concern, namely,

                        "The standard* AR-15 bullet, as previously stated, carries kinetic energy of 1300 foot pounds; a typical hunting rifle bullet has between 2600 and 4000 foot pounds, meaning it has greater recoil. The excessive recoil of a hunting rifle precludes rapid firing on target, because of the obligatory motion of the gun and its impact on the shooter. But the moderate energy of the AR-15 allows shooting on target literally as rapidly as the trigger can be pulled, while providing ample bullet speed to inflict lethal wounds."


                        To you, as a self-assessed lifelong hunter, might I ask what game and caliber (or gauge)?



                        *Again, there is no "standard", they use that interchangeably with .223.

                        Last edited by The Sicatoka; 06-04-2021, 08:34 AM.
                        The preceding post may contain trigger words and is not safe-space approved. <-- Virtue signaling.

                        North Dakota Hockey:

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
                          Houston woman shoots her 5 year old while aiming for an unleashed puppy jfc

                          **** this country

                          https://mobile.twitter.com/shannonrw...06790003728384
                          ***. The link for the video didn’t work for me but it looks like a pretty densely populated neighborhood and the only time you would ever want to shoot a gun is if one of the ubiquitous meth head gangs confronted you. She could have also shot some random bystander and if you shoot at someone’s puppy decent chance lead is going to start flying in the other direction. That’s one of the most f’ed up stories I’ve seen in awhile.
                          Originally posted by BobbyBrady
                          Crosby probably wouldn't even be on BC's top two lines next year

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                          • Anyone else getting tired of having to text friends in cities across the US to make sure they're OK after a mass shooting?

                            I know we've got to think about the hordes of zombie meth addicts, but maybe we should do a bit more to fix the only country in the world where mass shootings happen multiple times a week. I'm sure the shooting in Austin overnight was just a man going through a midlife crisis and there's nothing that could have been done.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by cF[Authentic] View Post
                              Anyone else getting tired of having to text friends in cities across the US to make sure they're OK after a mass shooting?

                              I know we've got to think about the hordes of zombie meth addicts, but maybe we should do a bit more to fix the only country in the world where mass shootings happen multiple times a week. I'm sure the shooting in Austin overnight was just a man going through a midlife crisis and there's nothing that could have been done.
                              Just remember, doing nothing is better than doing something in this case, lest anyone is seen as patting themselves on the back and subjectively acting smug about it, before moving onto other issues. That self-congratulatory stuff is reprehensible. It’s worse than the daily shootings/suicides, and therefore, preclude taking action on the issue.
                              We all know Massachusetts, Hawaii, California, etc., have the lowest gun violence rates per capita not because of any collection of stricter gun laws they may have passed, but because of the handsomeness level of their respective governors and people.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by cF[Authentic] View Post
                                Anyone else getting tired of having to text friends in cities across the US to make sure they're OK after a mass shooting?

                                I know we've got to think about the hordes of zombie meth addicts, but maybe we should do a bit more to fix the only country in the world where mass shootings happen multiple times a week. I'm sure the shooting in Austin overnight was just a man going through a midlife crisis and there's nothing that could have been done.
                                1. "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. May 27, 2014. Retrieved April 8,2020.
                                2. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. June 17, 2015. Retrieved April 8,2020.
                                3. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. October 1, 2015. Retrieved April 8, 2020.
                                4. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. December 3, 2015. Retrieved April 8, 2020.
                                5. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. October 2, 2017. Retrieved April 8, 2020.
                                6. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. November 5, 2017. Retrieved April 8, 2020.
                                7. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. February 14, 2018. Retrieved April 8, 2020.
                                8. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. May 18, 2018. Retrieved April 8,2020.
                                9. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. September 13, 2018. Retrieved April 8, 2020.
                                10. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. October 29, 2018. Retrieved April 8, 2020.
                                11. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. November 8, 2018. Retrieved April 8, 2020.
                                12. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. June 1, 2019. Retrieved April 8,2020.
                                13. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. August 4, 2019. Retrieved April 8, 2020.
                                14. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. August 4, 2019. Retrieved April 8, 2020.
                                15. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. February 26, 2020. Retrieved April 8, 2020.
                                16. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. March 17, 2021. Retrieved March 17, 2021.
                                17. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. March 23, 2021. Retrieved March 23, 2021.
                                18. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. April 16, 2021. Retrieved April 16, 2021.
                                19. ^ "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". The Onion. May 26, 2021. Retrieved May 26,2021.
                                Cornell University
                                National Champion 1967, 1970
                                ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                                Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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