Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

It is also extremely unlikely that anyone that heard Ken Kratz's press conference describing brutal way that Teresa Halbach was killed according to the Brendan Dassey "confession" could easily separate that from what was actually presented at trial and that a group of people from Manitowoc County could be considered impartial. I am still shocked that Avery's attorneys didn't try and get the trial moved as far away from Manitowoc County as possible.

It is extremely easy to look at the facts presented in the documentary and the links assembled in the first post and come to the conclusion that Dassey (and to a lesser extent Avery) deserve new trials. I struggle to get over the hurdle of what Avery's motive is. The guy was so close to getting a giant payday and he would do this? There are just so many things that don't make sense for Avery to be the one that did it...unless you assume he did do and that everything strange is simply the MCSD making sure he is convicted of it.

[SJHovey]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

It is also extremely unlikely that anyone that heard Ken Kratz's press conference describing brutal way that Teresa Halbach was killed according to the Brendan Dassey "confession" could easily separate that from what was actually presented at trial and that a group of people from Manitowoc County could be considered impartial. I am still shocked that Avery's attorneys didn't try and get the trial moved as far away from Manitowoc County as possible.

It is extremely easy to look at the facts presented in the documentary and the links assembled in the first post and come to the conclusion that Dassey (and to a lesser extent Avery) deserve new trials. I struggle to get over the hurdle of what Avery's motive is. The guy was so close to getting a giant payday and he would do this? There are just so many things that don't make sense for Avery to be the one that did it...unless you assume he did do and that everything strange is simply the MCSD making sure he is convicted of it.

Kratz' press conference was pretty shady, although not any more so than any other prosecutor who does the same thing. The series did a great job of showing how each party, daily, did their best to sell the case through the media. The defense probably should have asked for some sort of gag order right at the very beginning, in November, which would have headed off the March press conference. Maybe they did, and it was denied, but I haven't seen any evidence of it.

I suspect a request to change venue was made, but I don't know. Avery's attorneys seemed fairly on the ball. At one point they were reading from documents they received from prospective jurors/community members, I assume, regarding their pre-trial feelings on the case. If you recall, most of them said something like they thought Avery was guilty. My guess is that the lawyers had obtained that survey type of evidence to try to support a change of venue. But I don't think venue changes occur all that often.

My personal feeling is that it's more likely than not Avery did this, although because my knowledge is based almost exclusively on a slanted Netflix series and what various bloggers have written, it's hard to claim I have a clear picture of all the evidence.

Here's the thing about the motive of the county to frame Avery. As I understand it, there were three defendants -- the County, the former sheriff, and the former prosecutor. The two individuals who faced civil liability were both long out of office and played zero role in the investigation or trial. None of the cops were going to have to foot the bill for the County. No question that the sheriffs deputies didn't like Avery, and I don't doubt that they could have "enhanced" the evidence to try to ensure a conviction, but there is no way I believe the cops killed this girl.

That means someone else did. While there are a lot of questions about the discovery of some of the evidence, and certainly the Dassey confessions, we do still know that Halbach went to Avery's house, that was basically the last place anyone saw her alive, all cellphone or other activity stopped after that, the vehicle was found in the Avery auto yard, and her bones were discovered in the burn pit and barrel. If Avery didn't do it, what happened? Is there any reasonable belief the cops found Halbach's bones somewhere else, then slipped them into Avery's burn pile? If it was the cops, where did they find the bones, and when?

If the "evidence" thrown around about Avery is even half true in terms of his repeated calls asking for Halbach to come out, his greeting her once in only a towel, his abuse of relatives, I'd have a pretty queasy feeling about the guy.

The problem is now, I'm not sure the state could get a "fair" trial, if Avery were re-tried, as strange as that sounds. We ought to err on the side of the defendant. But I think we, who did not sit through the actual trial, should be careful in judging the jury in this case.

[SanTropez]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Unless you sat in the courtroom and listened to the prosecution (and the defense) present their case and cross-examine the witnesses, you really can't say for sure whether he was or wasn't proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

You better go make sure your mom isn't getting stuffed by a 24 (27) YO.

Take pics if she is...

[trixR4kids]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

That means someone else did. While there are a lot of questions about the discovery of some of the evidence, and certainly the Dassey confessions, we do still know that Halbach went to Avery's house, that was basically the last place anyone saw her alive, all cellphone or other activity stopped after that, the vehicle was found in the Avery auto yard, and her bones were discovered in the burn pit and barrel. If Avery didn't do it, what happened? Is there any reasonable belief the cops found Halbach's bones somewhere else, then slipped them into Avery's burn pile? If it was the cops, where did they find the bones, and when?

I guess this was posted on youtube and then someone posted it to reddit. Surprisingly it seems plausible in terms of an alternate theory.

The police didn’t kill Theresa Halbach. Andrew Colborn located that RAV4 with the assistance of Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas who illegally trespassed onto the Avery Salvage Yard on the night of November 3rd 2005. Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas suspected something was up since the Avery Salvage Yard was the last place they knew Theresa visited on Oct.31st Halloween day. They went snooping on the property and found the car. They checked the car and found the key in the ignition and blood in the cargo area. Mike or Ryan removed the key from the ignition to ensure that no one could easily move the car off of the Avery property… freaked out about this huge discovery they call the Manitowoc Sheriffs Department. Andrew Colborn fielded the call that night and went out and met Ryan and Mike at the Salvage Yard so he could view the car for himself. Ryan and Mike show him the car and to be certain its Halbachs he “calls” in the plate number to dispatch. Colborn has to “call” in… instead of “radio” in… the plate number to Manitowoc dispatch because he wasn’t in his police cruiser at the moment, but rather on foot and in the “field’ on the Avery Salvage property. This mistake places Colborn at the scene and in contact with Halbachs RAV4… 2 days before it is officially located on November 5th, 2005, by Pam Sturm….

This is problematic for Colborn because all call and radio transmissions to dispatch are recorded and logged onto the Manitowoc Police server. Andrew Colborn is now operating outside of police protocol at a potential crime scene that he has no official directive to be at. He tells Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas to basically **** about what they found and not mention to anyone that they were ever on the Avery Salvage property that night. Ryan or Mike turns the RAV4 key over to Andrew Colborn. Mike and Ryan are told to go home. Andrew Colborn then immediately calls Lt. James Lenk and briefs him about the discovery of the Halbach car and breaches of protocol he committed on the Avery property, also about Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach being there. Lt James Lenk realizing that Colborn’s calling in Halbachs plate is a serious mistake with potential consequences orders Andrew Colborn to remove the license plate from Halbach’s car and then report to him immediately.

What James Lenk and Andrew Colborn, or the others for that matter, don’t realize at this point and are completely unaware of is that Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych have kidnapped, raped, shot and then burned Theresa Halbach in the privacy of the gravel quarry off of Jambo Rd on Halloween evening. They choose to burn her body to dispose of their DNA evidence of the crimes. They hid Halbach’s car in the rear of Avery Salvage and wiped it clean of their prints. I believe it is Scott Tadych’s idea to secretly transport the cremains of Halbach from the gravel quarry and dispose them into Steven Avery’s burn pit. Scott Tadych transports Halbach’s cremains in secret by using one of Barb Jandas burn barrels from her yard. Scott Tadych fails to collect all of Halbach’s cremains from the original burn site in the gravel quarry, thus leaving some behind that FBI investigators later find… but he also fails in making certain all of Halbach’s cremains are out of Barb Jandas burn barrel after dumping them into Steven Avery’s burn pit. This is why investigators found small bits of Halbach in Barb Jandas burn barrel. Thus making a total of three sites where Halbach’s cremains are found. Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey are unaware that Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach have found Theresas car on the property and that Lenk and Colborn are now involved and in play with their scheme.

By shear colossal luck, two completely independent frame jobs targeting one man, Steven Avery were shaping up into the perfect storm. On one front, from Lenk and Colborn regarding the RAV4, ….and on the other unconnected front by Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey regarding the cremains of Theresa Halbach. One party wasn’t aware of the other’s involvements at any point during the days leading up to the official discovery of Halbach’s RAV4 at the Avery Salvage Yard hence why the investigation and murder trial made zero sense to anyone especially the Jury.

None of the evidence could be connected because it was all unrelated… everybody was guessing. But Buting and Strang had zeroed in on a part of it but couldn’t fully form a solid defense to prove it. The Jury couldn’t conceive that Manitowoc officers could have conspired to kill Theresa Halbach to frame Steven Avery as Ken Kratz insisted they had to if they wanted to follow the theory the defense presented of the frame up of Steven Avery by Manitowoc officials. And Ken Kratz was right… Imagine Scott Tadych’s confused and utter relief when Steve Avery’s blood was found in the Halbach car and the RAV4 key found in Steve Avery’s bedroom….. he must have been like…. ***?! A quote from Scott Tadych after Steven Avery is convicted of Theresa Halbach’s murder…. “THIS IS THE GREATEST THING TO EVER HAPPEN” ….. We will see Scott, we will see…………………”

This is probably the most credible theory I have come across so far. Notice how the events here not only make logical sense, but they also line up with how many of the parties involved behaved during the documentary i.e how Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas seemed like they knew more about what happened than they were leading on. As well as Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey’s bizarre hostility towards Steven Avery.

http://brobible.com/entertainment/ar...colborns-call/

If the "evidence" thrown around about Avery is even half true in terms of his repeated calls asking for Halbach to come out, his greeting her once in only a towel, his abuse of relatives, I'd have a pretty queasy feeling about the guy.

As far as this, Halbach talked to another employee about it, basically she didn't make a huge deal about it and just said it was kinda gross and laughed about it. It wasn't like she was afraid of the guy as Kratz seems to allude to.

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Does this article have a true representation of any portion of Dassey's confession?
http://www.dailywire.com/news/2680/h...-aaron-bandler

He [Avery] went to go pick up some stuff around the yard then after that we, he asked me to come in the house cuz he wanted to show me somethin'. And he showed me that she [Halbach] was laying on the bed, her hands were roped up to the bed and that her legs were cuffed. And then he told me to have sex with her and so I did because I thought I was not gonna get away from 'em cuz he was too strong, so I did what he said and then after that, he untied her and uncuffed her and then he brought her outside and before he went outside, he told me to grab her clothes and her shoes. So we went into the garage and before she went out, when before he took her outside, he had tied up her hands and feet and then was in the garage and he stabbed her and then he told me to. And, after that he wanted to make sure she was dead or somethin' so he shot her five times and while he was doing that I wasn't looking because I can't watch that stuff. So I was standing by the big door in the garage and then after that, he took her outside and we put her on the fire and we used her clothes to clean up the, some of the blood. And, when we put her in the fire, and her clothes, we were standing right by the garage, to wait for it to get down so we threw some of that stuff on it after it went down.

POLICE: OK. Let's start with when you bring her out to the garage. Where do you put her?

DASSEY: On the floor.

POLICE: And continue, tell us what happens.

DASSEY: And then he stabs her and then he tells me to and then he puts her into the jeep and then he said he would rather burn her so then he put her back on the floor and then he shot her five times.

POLICE: Where does he stab her?

DASSEY: In the chest.

POLICE: Show me where.

DASSEY: Like right here.

POLICE: Where do you stab her?

DASSEY: In the stomach.

POLICE: What does she say when you stab her?

DASSEY: To stop what I was doin'.

POLICE: What's that? Is she screaming?

DASSEY: Yeah.

POLICE: Is she screaming and saying stop what you're doing? Is she swearing at you? Is she struggling or what? Tell us how that happened.

DASSEY: Just that she was crying a lot.

POLICE: Are you holding her down?

DASSEY: No.

POLICE: Who is?

DASSEY: Steven is.

[trixR4kids]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I know there's been crowd sourcing to get all the trial transcripts and I think all the interviews are available.

[SJHovey]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I guess this was posted on youtube and then someone posted it to reddit. Surprisingly it seems plausible in terms of an alternate theory.


http://brobible.com/entertainment/ar...colborns-call/


As far as this, Halbach talked to another employee about it, basically she didn't make a huge deal about it and just said it was kinda gross and laughed about it. It wasn't like she was afraid of the guy as Kratz seems to allude to.

I don't think there is anything remotely plausible about that story as an alternative theory.

[trixR4kids]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

ok

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I don't think there is anything remotely plausible about that story as an alternative theory.

I don't really think its that implausible that Scott Tadych and Boddy Dassey did something that set this in motion.

[jerphisch]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Does this article have a true representation of any portion of Dassey's confession?
http://www.dailywire.com/news/2680/h...-aaron-bandler

Where's the blood? (And no, I'm not buying that everything described there neatly pooled in a 3x3 square that was cleaned to perfection) The forensics pretty much say that didn't happen. Moving her in, out and back into the garage without one drop of blood spilling would be pretty impressive.

[ericredaxe]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

So I just finished the 10th episode. I guess from what I had heard going into the series, I expected to see the film makers present a stronger case as to why he (and his nephew) didn't do it.

Mostly I'm left with the feeling that Brendan (regardless of if he was or was not involved) certainly did not get good representation and the system failed him (at least it the sense of giving him a good trial).

[SJHovey]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

ok

I don't really think its that implausible that Scott Tadych and Boddy Dassey did something that set this in motion.

No, it really is implausible to think this happened in any fashion close to that speculated by the author reported in trix' post.

First, wasn't Bobby Dassey hunting or gone for a period of time, confirmed by Brendan Dassey?

Second, is there any evidence at all that Tadych or Bobby Dassey had any contact with Halbach? People say it's possible or plausible they killed her. Well, sure, it's possible I killed her, but I didn't. What speck of evidence even exists that the two of them were engaged in a second conspiracy, coincident with the cops supposed conspiracy, and that the two meshed perfectly together? Zero.

First, following the remarkably stupid theory written by this guy, Tadych and Bobby Dassey kidnap Halbach, rape and kill her, then burn her body. So they did this when and where? They kidnapped her while she was visiting Steve Avery? While she was getting ready to leave the Avery property after photographing the van, with the Dassey boys inside one house, and Steve Avery at his?

Then they moved the vehicle to the Avery salvage yard? So what is Steve Avery doing all this time? Just ignoring the kidnapping and murder for which he is now blamed?

And how exactly did Tadych and Bobby Dassey get the bones back home into Steve Avery's fire that night. No evidence anyone was at the fire other than Steve Avery and Brendan Dassey. Or did they do it later, when the cops were there? Is there any DNA evidence at all, anywhere, connecting Tadych and Bobby Dassey?

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

The only alibi for Tadych and Bobby Dassey is each of the passing each other on the road. It seems like the body must have been burned at the quarry, why on earth would avert bring the bones back to his fire pit?

[trixR4kids]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Right their alibi was super weak from what I remember.

As far as the how, it's really no more weak than the state's case against Avery, and it actually fits far more of the timeline.

First, following the remarkably stupid theory written by this guy, Tadych and Bobby Dassey kidnap Halbach, rape and kill her, then burn her body. So they did this when and where? They kidnapped her while she was visiting Steve Avery? While she was getting ready to leave the Avery property after photographing the van, with the Dassey boys inside one house, and Steve Avery at his?

Like did you even read it? It answers these questions.

Then they moved the vehicle to the Avery salvage yard? So what is Steve Avery doing all this time? Just ignoring the kidnapping and murder for which he is now blamed?

The salvage yard is 40 acres surely you realize this?

And how exactly did Tadych and Bobby Dassey get the bones back home into Steve Avery's fire that night. No evidence anyone was at the fire other than Steve Avery and Brendan Dassey. Or did they do it later, when the cops were there? Is there any DNA evidence at all, anywhere, connecting Tadych and Bobby Dassey?

No more DNA evidence than there is for Brendan or Steven.

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Right their alibi was super weak from what I remember.

As far as the how, it's really no more weak than the state's case against Avery, and it actually fits far more of the timeline.


Like did you even read it? It answers these questions.


The salvage yard is 40 acres surely you realize this?


No more DNA evidence than there is for Brendan or Steven.

If you assume Avery's blood was planted, but yes, more so with Brendan (no evidence beyond his coerced confession).
The Prosecution thinks she was restrained, raped and murdered in the house/garage yet there is no evidence that she was ever in the house? No signs of struggle on the bed posts, no sign of Halbach's DNA on the shackles or his bed, sheets, etc. So he was able to clean up all that blood/DNA evidence but too stupid to crush the car or just leave the bones in the barrel in the quarry?

I'm not sure I agree with the plausibility of the story about Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas. I certainly think their attitudes during the search interviews and how Pam Sturm ended up finding that vehicle so quickly and just happen to have the camera is questionable. It's plausible that someone conducted an illegal search (colborn), trespassed at night(brother or Hillegas), and/or the vehicle was planted there by someone (actual killer, police?).


Whether its what actually happen or not, the most plausible events that happen were someone else killed her and attempted to frame Avery because they were smart enough to realize that MCSD wanted to take him down a peg and were convinced that he was a bad guy regardless of his exoneration. The extent of which any of this happen is what is difficult to piece together.

The simple fact that Colborn, Lenk, and Culhane were all over this case is troubling to say the least.