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Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

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  • #31
    Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

    Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    Yeah, I have no idea why the defense would have allowed anyone related to Manitowoc county sheriff department people on the jury.

    Maybe because of the rural nature, there were too many to remove all of them.
    Usually each side removes six apiece, and I also believe the judge removed 15 potential jurors for bias during voir dire. So that's at least 27 people deemed more biased than the people who ended up on the jury. The defense certainly had its opportunity to remove the relatives though so to come back later and say the jury was tainted, welp, they had their chance to remove them and didn't.

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    • #32
      Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

      Originally posted by SNC SID View Post
      Usually each side removes six apiece, and I also believe the judge removed 15 potential jurors for bias during voir dire. So that's at least 27 people deemed more biased than the people who ended up on the jury. The defense certainly had its opportunity to remove the relatives though so to come back later and say the jury was tainted, welp, they had their chance to remove them and didn't.
      That's true, but I (probably mistakenly) assumed there were things said or done by jurors after they were impaneled that contributed to or caused the intimidation, even though they are not to deliberate until the evidence is in.

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      • #33
        Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

        Why didn't the defense try to have the trial moved way away from Manitowoc County? Calumet doesn't count...It's the next county over. I'm talking entirely different part of the state or a different state.
        Last edited by PrezdeJohnson09; 01-07-2016, 12:43 PM.
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        • #34
          Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

          Originally posted by PrezdeJohnson09 View Post
          Why didn't the defense try to have the trial moved way away from Manitowoc County? Calumet doesn't count...It's the next county over. I'm talking entirely different part of the state or a different state.
          All these questions underscore how different justice can be depending on what you can afford. This defense counsel might have been diligent and well intentioned but he or she was no OJ Dream Team.

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          • #35
            Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

            Usually they will keep the locus the same but import the jury from another county. Not sure if the defense requested moving it or asked for a jury from elsewhere in Wisconsin. If they didn't ask for it, then it won't happen for sure.

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            • #36
              Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

              If I was on that jury and saw just some of the evidence presented in this series, even with other evidence against Avery not shown, it would be hard to explain some of those important things away, and would leave doubt in my mind about the whole thing. When you take into account his history with police, suing the cops, wrongful imprisonment etc...

              Innocent until proven guilty beyond a doubt...

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              • #37
                Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

                It appears there's another documentary in the works on this same subject, one that seems to think there were glaring omissions from Making of a Murderer that could be the cause of the visceral reactions we're seeing in the media.
                "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

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                • #38
                  Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

                  Originally posted by SanTropez View Post
                  If I was on that jury and saw just some of the evidence presented in this series, even with other evidence against Avery not shown, it would be hard to explain some of those important things away, and would leave doubt in my mind about the whole thing. When you take into account his history with police, suing the cops, wrongful imprisonment etc...

                  Innocent until proven guilty beyond a doubt...
                  Beyond a reasonable doubt....not beyond all doubt.
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                  • #39
                    Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

                    If the documentary is correct on the facts I have very little doubt that the department set him up again, both to avoid the payout and to save themselves (and also for revenge).

                    I quite understand that the documentary has an agenda (as the pro-police one being made will), but the actuality of malfeasance and sheer corruption running through all the facts of both cases is about as close to irrefutable as you can get -- this was (is?) is very, very bad bunch.

                    It's scary to realize that if you make the wrong enemy you can be put away despite innocence. That is obviously not the way the justice system is designed to work, but without significant reform (pairing both the police and the DA with adversarial civil rights departments and officials whose job it is to look after the rights of the accused and to prevent not just abuse but also bias) the system plus human nature will lead to this sort of thing. The media play along and are captured by the prosecution by the same forces as capture the DA: working together with the police every day, careers to be made by going along, creating and then satisfying a public bloodlust for advancement (or simply ratings).

                    The moral may simply be something we already knew, and that Avery himself says at one point: the poor always lose.
                    Last edited by Kepler; 01-10-2016, 08:18 PM.
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                    • #40
                      Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

                      Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                      If the documentary is correct on the facts I have very little doubt that the department set him up again, both to avoid the payout and to save themselves (and also for revenge).

                      I quite understand that the documentary has an agenda (as the pro-police one being made will), but the actuality of malfeasance and sheer corruption running through all the facts of both cases is about as close to irrefutable as you can get -- this was (is?) is very, very bad bunch.

                      It's scary to realize that if you make the wrong enemy you can be put away despite innocence. That is obviously not the way the justice system is designed to work, but without significant reform (pairing both the police and the DA with adversarial civil rights departments and officials whose job it is to look after the rights of the accused and to prevent not just abuse but also bias) the system plus human nature will lead to this sort of thing. The media play along and are captured by the prosecution by the same forces as capture the DA: working together with the police every day, careers to be made by going along, creating and then satisfying a public bloodlust for advancement (or simply ratings).

                      The moral may simply be something we already knew, and that Avery himself says at one point: the poor always lose.
                      Agreed to a point. Even WITH the doc's bias...can't argue against the actual court footage of changed testimony/lying, the actual evidence that "happened" to be found during a search that should never have been performed by the certain individuals, etc.
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                      • #41
                        Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

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                        • #42
                          Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

                          Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
                          Agreed to a point. Even WITH the doc's bias...can't argue against the actual court footage of changed testimony/lying, the actual evidence that "happened" to be found during a search that should never have been performed by the certain individuals, etc.
                          The footage of them collecting "testimony" from the 70 IQ kid by leading him and selectively honing in on what they were trying to implant as a memory cinched it for me. All I could think was "I wonder how common this is?" It wasn't as if the officers just learned to do that on the spot. I'm sure it is a tale as old as time.

                          They should have taken a tip from the Chi police and "accidentally deleted" the tape.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                            The footage of them collecting "testimony" from the 70 IQ kid by leading him and selectively honing in on what they were trying to implant as a memory cinched it for me. All I could think was "I wonder how common this is?" It wasn't as if the officers just learned to do that on the spot. I'm sure it is a tale as old as time.

                            They should have taken a tip from the Chi police and "accidentally deleted" the tape.
                            I saw on a news show like 20/20 or something where these cops had detained some 16 year old kids for a crime because they were in the area at the time. Off camera the cop said if you just admit to it I'll let you go. The kid admits to it on camera and has now spent something like a decade in prison for trusting the cops. So to answer your question, probobly on a monthly basis.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

                              Originally posted by haulin oats View Post
                              I saw on a news show like 20/20 or something where these cops had detained some 16 year old kids for a crime because they were in the area at the time. Off camera the cop said if you just admit to it I'll let you go. The kid admits to it on camera and has now spent something like a decade in prison for trusting the cops. So to answer your question, probobly on a monthly basis.
                              I'm almost positive that in the documentary one of the cops of one of the lawyers say it's THEIR JOB to try and get a confession. They'll do anything to get a confession.
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                              • #45
                                Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

                                Don't believe any it. I have a co-worker who is from Manitowoc, who went to High School with the Avery brothers.
                                He killed that poor woman. There is no doubt in anyone who lives in the Brown,(me) Kewaukee and Manitowoc Counties.
                                So many facts didn't make the movie it is laughable that people believe this garbage.
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