Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I have not commented on this yet, I wanted to get though all 10 episodes, and have some time to digest it.

If we're looking at theories, and judging them against each other, I think we should start with what the timeline is, based on what we know for certain. Items that are agreed upon by all parties, or proven by evidence that we can be certain is correct.

October 31st: Halbach visits Steve Avery's house, and photographs a van
October 31st - November 1st (possibly the 2nd, but not likely): Halbach's body is burned in 1 of 3 locations, the quarry, the burn barrel, or the fire pit. We have no way of knowing which location was it actually burned, but we know that her remains were found in all 3 locations.
November 1st - ???????: Halbach's cell phone account was accessed by her ex boyfriend
November 1st - ???????: Voicemails are deleted from Halbach's cell phone
November 3rd: Coburn calls in Halbach's RAV4 plate numbers
November 5th: Search party members find the RAV4 at Avery Salvage yard
November 5th - ???????: Calumet and Manitowoc Sheriff depts. search the Avery "compound", after 6 days, find a key to the RAV4 in Steve Avery's trailer, remains are found in the fire pit and burn barrel

After that, I'm not sure what the chain of events are, but at some point, months later, we do know that additional searches also found a bullet in the garage. Also, during this time, after the initial search, Avery is arrested, and Dassey is interrogated.

I don't think any of these items have been argued against, and they should be be considered fact. If there is anything I am missing, I can add to it. Now, that isn't a whole lot of info that we can be sure of...

Here are a few other items that seem like a sure thing, but I'm not completely sure of:
- At some point, Halbach's body was placed in the back of the RAV4
- The RAV4 key was cleaned completely between the time it was last handled by another person (Halbach, or another) and the time it acquired Steve Avery's DNA
- No large amount of blood could have been spilled, or present inside of the garage, due to there being no blood found in the large cracks in the floor, as it would have been impossible to clean that
- Halbach could not have been killed or attacked while on Steve Avery's bed, as there was no evidence, DNA or other found on the mattress

Thoughts?

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I have not commented on this yet, I wanted to get though all 10 episodes, and have some time to digest it.

If we're looking at theories, and judging them against each other, I think we should start with what the timeline is, based on what we know for certain. Items that are agreed upon by all parties, or proven by evidence that we can be certain is correct.

October 31st: Halbach visits Steve Avery's house, and photographs a van
October 31st - November 1st (possibly the 2nd, but not likely): Halbach's body is burned in 1 of 3 locations, the quarry, the burn barrel, or the fire pit. We have no way of knowing which location was it actually burned, but we know that her remains were found in all 3 locations.
November 1st - ???????: Halbach's cell phone account was accessed by her ex boyfriend
November 1st - ???????: Voicemails are deleted from Halbach's cell phone
November 3rd: Coburn calls in Halbach's RAV4 plate numbers
November 5th: Search party members find the RAV4 at Avery Salvage yard
November 5th - ???????: Calumet and Manitowoc Sheriff depts. search the Avery "compound", after 6 days, find a key to the RAV4 in Steve Avery's trailer, remains are found in the fire pit and burn barrel

After that, I'm not sure what the chain of events are, but at some point, months later, we do know that additional searches also found a bullet in the garage. Also, during this time, after the initial search, Avery is arrested, and Dassey is interrogated.

I don't think any of these items have been argued against, and they should be be considered fact. If there is anything I am missing, I can add to it. Now, that isn't a whole lot of info that we can be sure of...

Here are a few other items that seem like a sure thing, but I'm not completely sure of:
- At some point, Halbach's body was placed in the back of the RAV4
- The RAV4 key was cleaned completely between the time it was last handled by another person (Halbach, or another) and the time it acquired Steve Avery's DNA
- No large amount of blood could have been spilled, or present inside of the garage, due to there being no blood found in the large cracks in the floor, as it would have been impossible to clean that
- Halbach could not have been killed or attacked while on Steve Avery's bed, as there was no evidence, DNA or other found on the mattress

Thoughts?

Sounds about right. We can tie dates to when the Dassey confession leads to them finding the bullet in the garage. Not sure what it is off the top of my head.
We could also add the date/time of Avery being interviewed by local news about the disappearance of Teresa as an important moment/fact.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Ok, so I edited a little, based on Shirtless's suggestions:

October 31st: Halbach visits Steve Avery's house, and photographs a van
October 31st - November 1st (possibly the 2nd, but not likely): Halbach's body is burned in 1 of 3 locations, the quarry, the burn barrel, or the fire pit. We have no way of knowing which location was it actually burned, but we know that her remains were found in all 3 locations.
November 1st - ???????: Halbach's cell phone account was accessed by her ex boyfriend
November 1st - ???????: Voicemails are deleted from Halbach's cell phone
November 1st - ???????: Steve Avery is interviewed by local news
November 3rd: Coburn calls in Halbach's RAV4 plate numbers
November 5th: Search party members find the RAV4 at Avery Salvage yard
November 5th - ???????: Calumet and Manitowoc Sheriff depts. search the Avery "compound", after 6 days, find a key to the RAV4 in Steve Avery's trailer, remains are found in the fire pit and burn barrel
?????????: Brendan Dassey is interrogated and "confesses"
?????????: Additional searches at the Avery house turn up a bullet in Steve's garage


Here are a few other items that seem like a sure thing, but I'm not completely sure of:
- At some point, Halbach's body was placed in the back of the RAV4
- The RAV4 key was cleaned completely between the time it was last handled by another person (Halbach, or another) and the time it acquired Steve Avery's DNA
- No large amount of blood could have been spilled, or present inside of the garage, due to there being no blood found in the large cracks in the floor, as it would have been impossible to clean that
- Halbach could not have been killed or attacked while on Steve Avery's bed, as there was no evidence, DNA or other found on the mattress

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Taking this into account:

At some point after Halbach arrived, photographing the van, she is killed by someone. We don't know who, and we don't know where. I think we can be quite certain, due to lack of evidence, that neither Steve Avery's house, or his garage was the murder scene. At that point, the killer, or killers, transported Halbach's body in the RAV4, due to the blood stains found in the back. Halbach's body was then burned in one of 3 locations, the quarry, the burn barrel or the fire pit, or at a 4th, unknown location. At some point after the body was burned, the remains were moved in a manner that caused remains to be found in all 3 possible burn locations. A few days after Halbach has gone missing, Coburn, an officer with the Manitowoc Sheriff's department, calls in Halbach's license plate numbers. Two days after that, a member of the search party locates the RAV4 in the Avery Auto Salvage lot.

Here's a question that I don't think I've heard answered. What happened to Halbach's camera? Do we assume it was burned? An expensive camera has metal parts to it, which should still be present after being burned, did they find them? Is it out there somewhere?

[jerphisch]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Taking this into account:

At some point after Halbach arrived, photographing the van, she is killed by someone. We don't know who, and we don't know where. I think we can be quite certain, due to lack of evidence, that neither Steve Avery's house, or his garage was the murder scene. At that point, the killer, or killers, transported Halbach's body in the RAV4, due to the blood stains found in the back. Halbach's body was then burned in one of 3 locations, the quarry, the burn barrel or the fire pit, or at a 4th, unknown location. At some point after the body was burned, the remains were moved in a manner that caused remains to be found in all 3 possible burn locations. A few days after Halbach has gone missing, Coburn, an officer with the Manitowoc Sheriff's department, calls in Halbach's license plate numbers. Two days after that, a member of the search party locates the RAV4 in the Avery Auto Salvage lot. Here's a question that I don't think I've heard answered. What happened to Halbach's camera? Do we assume it was burned? An expensive camera has metal parts to it, which should still be present after being burned, did they find them? Is it out there somewhere?

Pretty sure her phone and camera were both in the burn barrel.

Also it isn't clear in the time line if she ever left the property or not, her car was seen leaving by a gas station attendant around the time she should have been leaving but he couldn't tell who was driving it.

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Pretty sure her phone and camera were both in the burn barrel.

Also it isn't clear in the time line if she ever left the property or not, her car was seen leaving by a gas station attendant around the time she should have been leaving but he couldn't tell who was driving it.

According to some stuff I found on reddit, the camera, phone and pda were found burned in a different barrel. A flash card from a camera was found in her car.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

According to some stuff I found on reddit, the camera, phone and pda were found burned in a different barrel. A flash card from a camera was found in her car.

Ok, that is something that I hadn't seen. Good to know.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Pretty sure her phone and camera were both in the burn barrel.

Also it isn't clear in the time line if she ever left the property or not, her car was seen leaving by a gas station attendant around the time she should have been leaving but he couldn't tell who was driving it.

Yep. Agreed, I don't think we can assume that it left the property or that it didn't. It could be either, and we don't have enough info to confirm one way or another.

[SJHovey]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Ok, so I edited a little, based on Shirtless's suggestions:

October 31st: Halbach visits Steve Avery's house, and photographs a van
October 31st - November 1st (possibly the 2nd, but not likely): Halbach's body is burned in 1 of 3 locations, the quarry, the burn barrel, or the fire pit. We have no way of knowing which location was it actually burned, but we know that her remains were found in all 3 locations.
November 1st - ???????: Halbach's cell phone account was accessed by her ex boyfriend
November 1st - ???????: Voicemails are deleted from Halbach's cell phone
November 1st - ???????: Steve Avery is interviewed by local news
November 3rd: Coburn calls in Halbach's RAV4 plate numbers
November 5th: Search party members find the RAV4 at Avery Salvage yard
November 5th - ???????: Calumet and Manitowoc Sheriff depts. search the Avery "compound", after 6 days, find a key to the RAV4 in Steve Avery's trailer, remains are found in the fire pit and burn barrel
?????????: Brendan Dassey is interrogated and "confesses"
?????????: Additional searches at the Avery house turn up a bullet in Steve's garage


Here are a few other items that seem like a sure thing, but I'm not completely sure of:
- At some point, Halbach's body was placed in the back of the RAV4
- The RAV4 key was cleaned completely between the time it was last handled by another person (Halbach, or another) and the time it acquired Steve Avery's DNA
- No large amount of blood could have been spilled, or present inside of the garage, due to there being no blood found in the large cracks in the floor, as it would have been impossible to clean that
- Halbach could not have been killed or attacked while on Steve Avery's bed, as there was no evidence, DNA or other found on the mattress

The story hasn't gotten any clearer for me upon reflection. I even watched a couple of episodes again.

I guess at the end of the day, my theory is this:

She shows up at Avery's to photograph the vehicle.
Either before or after photographing the vehicle she goes in the house or the garage, where Avery essentially subdues her or takes control of her.
She may or may not have been sexually molested.
She is then shot by Avery, using the 22 caliber rifle. No stabbing or slashing of the throat. She is probably shot in the garage, although I'm not sure, and I'm not sure that's relevant. I also don't know that with a 22 caliber rifle you'd have an exit wound or the big blood spatter Avery's lawyers expect or claim. I'm guessing a single hole in her skull, which will bleed, but be pretty well confined to a single area.
Avery loads her into the back of the RAV to take her to the quarry. Too dangerous to just burn her in the yard, with people present in the area. During the trip, Avery's blood gets on the RAV 4 near the ignition, Halbach's in the rear of the RAV 4.

Avery then loads up the burned bones and transports them back to the house. It was probably unexpected to him that the bones did not completely burn up in the fire, so he assumes he has to burn them again, maybe in a hotter fire in the barrel or burn pit.

The bones are dumped into the barrel or burn pit for "finishing." A hot fire is started, which is the fire Dassey testified about.

The RAV 4 has already been parked by Avery in the salvage yard.
After the bones have been burned again, or at some point, Avery "cleans" the key to the RAV 4, resulting in all of Halbach's and Avery's DNA being removed.

At some point between Oct. 31 and the date Avery was kicked out of his house, Avery either touches the key, or perhaps something with his DNA on it, like clothes or socks or something, comes into contact with the key, leaving the faint Avery DNA evidence on the key.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

The story hasn't gotten any clearer for me upon reflection. I even watched a couple of episodes again.

I guess at the end of the day, my theory is this:

She shows up at Avery's to photograph the vehicle.
Either before or after photographing the vehicle she goes in the house or the garage, where Avery essentially subdues her or takes control of her.
She may or may not have been sexually molested.
She is then shot by Avery, using the 22 caliber rifle. No stabbing or slashing of the throat. She is probably shot in the garage, although I'm not sure, and I'm not sure that's relevant. I also don't know that with a 22 caliber rifle you'd have an exit wound or the big blood spatter Avery's lawyers expect or claim. I'm guessing a single hole in her skull, which will bleed, but be pretty well confined to a single area.
Avery loads her into the back of the RAV to take her to the quarry. Too dangerous to just burn her in the yard, with people present in the area. During the trip, Avery's blood gets on the RAV 4 near the ignition, Halbach's in the rear of the RAV 4.

Avery then loads up the burned bones and transports them back to the house. It was probably unexpected to him that the bones did not completely burn up in the fire, so he assumes he has to burn them again, maybe in a hotter fire in the barrel or burn pit.

The bones are dumped into the barrel or burn pit for "finishing." A hot fire is started, which is the fire Dassey testified about.

The RAV 4 has already been parked by Avery in the salvage yard.
After the bones have been burned again, or at some point, Avery "cleans" the key to the RAV 4, resulting in all of Halbach's and Avery's DNA being removed.

At some point between Oct. 31 and the date Avery was kicked out of his house, Avery either touches the key, or perhaps something with his DNA on it, like clothes or socks or something, comes into contact with the key, leaving the faint Avery DNA evidence on the key.

If there was no exit wound, how did the slug end up under the air compressor in the garage?

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

If there was no exit wound, how did the slug end up under the air compressor in the garage?

I have a hard time believing that Avery and/or Dassey were smart enough to clean up the garage in a way that left no dna evidence (except for the bullet found much later) yet too dumb to use the crusher, leave the burned bones in the quarry or not clean up the blood in the Rav4.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I have a hard time believing that Avery and/or Dassey were smart enough to clean up the garage in a way that left no dna evidence (except for the bullet found much later) yet too dumb to use the crusher, leave the burned bones in the quarry or not clean up the blood in the Rav4.

I agree. These guys are dip****s, they couldn't have cleaned up that well. At the same time, I don't believe that Avery wouldn't have crushed the car, not because he's smart or anything like that, but because crushing cars is what he does. Literally, the first thing that he'd think of when faced with the problem of having to get rid of a car that might be evidence against him, would be to crush it.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Also, one other thing is bugging me, after reading one theory earlier. The burn barrel, if it is like a burn barrel that we'd have growing up, is not something anyone would used to transport remains. It would be prohibitively heavy, awkward and dirty. I cannot believe that this is what it was used for, when a plastic bag, or several 5 gallon pails would be much better suited.

My guess on the burn barrel is 1) Whoever did move the remains purposely put some in that location in attempt to confuse evidence in the future, or 2) Whoever moved remains changed their mind over what the "plan" was, mid-way through, and moved them a 2nd time.

[SJHovey]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

If there was no exit wound, how did the slug end up under the air compressor in the garage?

I'm not convinced that is the slug that killed her. It's certainly possible it exited, but I think that it's possible that's one of the instances where the cops "enhanced" their case. Even if it did exit her skull, I still don't think you'd see a lot of splatter mess resulting. I've shot a lot of rabbits, birds, etc..., with a 22 caliber rifle and the power just isn't there. In fact, I think I read a book one time where they talked about Israeli assassins using 22 caliber handguns for their work because they were effective, at close range, but didn't make a ton of noise and they didn't cause this big explosive mess which might result in the killer getting tainted with the splatter. As I recall, it was a book about the efforts made to kill the '72 Olympics kidnappers.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I'm not convinced that is the slug that killed her. It's certainly possible it exited, but I think that it's possible that's one of the instances where the cops "enhanced" their case. Even if it did exit her skull, I still don't think you'd see a lot of splatter mess resulting. I've shot a lot of rabbits, birds, etc..., with a 22 caliber rifle and the power just isn't there. In fact, I think I read a book one time where they talked about Israeli assassins using 22 caliber handguns for their work because they were effective, at close range, but didn't make a ton of noise and they didn't cause this big explosive mess which might result in the killer getting tainted with the splatter. As I recall, it was a book about the efforts made to kill the '72 Olympics kidnappers.

I guess, I'd agree that it is possible. The part that is currently tripping me up is that even with a .22, I'd expect some kind of blood pooling from the entry wound. Maybe it is just a little bit, but there was no evidence of human blood, or of blood being cleaned up. Of course, it is possible it wasn't done in the garage either, and no one found where that puddle of blood was, or was cleaned up.

edit: actually, I'm firmly on the side of she wasn't killed in the garage or the house in any way that she would have bled. She could have been strangled in either location, or shot/stabbed/cut in a different location. I can't get past the complete lack of DNA evidence in those locations.