Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I've been discussing this in a different forum and the other investigations of Dassey are as equally bad if not worse than the one we already saw in the documentary. Either way you're talking about a learning disabled kid and you can't just pick and choose which parts of it are valid and which parts are fed, he just wanted to get out of there and go back to watching wrestelmania and hand in his project. He basically just told them what they wanted to hear and if there was any truth in there it's so bogged down between so many layers of BS that there's no way of knowing.

Yes they found his DNA on the hood but she'd been around many times before and it's not that crazy to think he just touched it at some point. I guess I'd be curious as to where exactly they found it and whether the lab messed up like they did on various other things throughout this debacle.

Not gonna lie, the worst part about all of this is that so many people that helped convict him the first time chose not to recuse themselves from this case to prevent any appearance of conflict of interest. That is the part that bothers me the most, whether Avery or Dassey is actually guilty, I have no honest idea, but both of them deserved better from the system especially when all the talk via the media was that MCSD was hands off, and yet Lenk and Colborn were all over everything...not to mention Sherry Culhane, who was a big part of the case for convicting Avery the first time.

[jerphisch]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

read the last link I posted, I think it does a very good job of explaining the major issue with the show. If I had (or eventually find) time, I'd sit through the whole Brendan Dassey interrogations to see how everything else is provided by him, to know if it was fed to him by them or if some of the important details were actually provided by Brendan...like the bit about him helping Avery move the car and witnessing Avery disconnect the battery to the vehicle which led them to swab under the hood for Avery's DNA, which they found.

The tech that found the DNA on the hood latch had already been in the car and didn't change gloves before going to the hood. So like everything it is questionable. Could have been there, could have been transferred from inside the car by the tech collecting evidence.

[SJHovey]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

My assessment, based upon the series.

First, I always worry a little bit in these about what I'm not being told. No interviews with the cops or prosecutor. No question which direction the filmmakers leaned.

There are a couple of things that bother me about the evidence of Avery's guilt, ignoring anything the kid may have said in his "admissions." Why do the prosecutors think Avery killed her? The guy was no saint, but nothing in his past (at least revealed in the movie) suggests even a hint of a motive. What was the prosecution argument about what actually happened? Where was she killed, and then what? Based upon strictly what we saw in the series, I couldn't convict Avery with the idea that he supposedly killed her in the house (or at least stabbed her in the stomach and slit her throat), hauled her to the garage and shot her in the head, then loaded her into her own vehicle and transported her somewhere(?), burned her body, then loaded her burned remains back up and took them back to his house and burned them again? That just makes no sense at all, and there is too much physical evidence missing to corroborate the thin physical evidence supporting such a summary.

The prosecution must have had some sort of argument that made sense, or I can't see a jury convicting.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd just open Avery's cell door right now, pat him on the back and set him free without knowing a lot more than what this series told us.

First, the whole thing with the cops and the evidence is troubling, but I'm not yet convinced of a conspiracy by them. Conspiracies of many, many people, simply don't work. Someone breaks rank. I do think it is entirely credible that the key was planted, given the prior photos and search. Cops undoubtedly have been guilty of trying to "enhance" the strength of their case because they don't trust the evidence they have. You could see that even in some of the testimony. But what I'd like to know is if the cops planted the key, where did they get it?

Second, the filmmakers and defense did nothing to challenge the plain fact that this girl was last seen alive at Avery's home, that no calls or cellphone activity was performed by her after that point, and she turned up dead. Avery isn't the only one there, but there is also no evidence that she came across someone else who may have killed her, AND had the ability to try to pin this on Avery. I mean, let's assume Avery didn't kill her, and someone else other than the police did. That person now has to figure out a way to frame Avery by burning her and then either getting her bones back to Avery's house, or making sure the cops find them and trusting that they'll get them back to Avery's house. Same with the key.

If you want to go further and say the cops killed her to frame Avery, then you have to show that in fact the cops knew there was some connection between Avery and this girl. Otherwise you just happen to have a cop kill a random girl and dump her remains at Avery's.

The only firm conclusion I did reach from the series, no matter how biased the filmmakers, is that the justice system clearly failed the kid, Dassey. The interviews by the cops, while probably pretty standard for cops, would cause me to dismiss the relevance of that admission as a member of the jury. The treatment of Dassey by Len Kachinsky and his investigator makes me sick to my stomach. Neither of them should ever see the inside of a courtroom again, except as defendants.

At the end of the day, I am probably 51-49 that Avery killed her (which is not enough under our system), but open to the idea that the filmmakers edited out evidence that would make my confidence level higher. I don't believe for a minute Dassey was involved.

[The Rube]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

The only firm conclusion I did reach from the series, no matter how biased the filmmakers, is that the justice system clearly failed the kid, Dassey. The interviews by the cops, while probably pretty standard for cops, would cause me to dismiss the relevance of that admission as a member of the jury. The treatment of Dassey by Len Kachinsky and his investigator makes me sick to my stomach. Neither of them should ever see the inside of a courtroom again, except as defendants.

At the end of the day, I am probably 51-49 that Avery killed her (which is not enough under our system), but open to the idea that the filmmakers edited out evidence that would make my confidence level higher. I don't believe for a minute Dassey was involved.

This. The Avery percentages may move a point or two, but as you said, not enough to convict.

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I have updated the first post of this thread with all unique links of information relating to the subject for easy finding.

http://board.uscho.com/showthread.ph...=1#post6249444

[unofan]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Haven't seen it, but Dassey sounds like one of the members of the Beatrice 6, who were convicted of murder and all later exonerated: an emotionally impaired person who tells the cops what they want to hear.

Funny story, the lead investigator on the Beatrice 6 incident still thinks they were all guilty. He just thinks the actual perp was a seventh unindicted co-conspirator. Never underestimate the power of self delusion.

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Haven't seen it, but Dassey sounds like one of the members of the Beatrice 6, who were convicted of murder and all later exonerated: an emotionally impaired person who tells the cops what they want to hear.

Funny story, the lead investigator on the Beatrice 6 incident still thinks they were all guilty. He just thinks the actual perp was a seventh unindicted co-conspirator. Never underestimate the power of self delusion.

That's not funny at all...that is really the root of this problem, so many of the people in law enforcement work so hard on this stuff to get convictions, that they forget that we all make mistakes and they make them too and they refuse to accept that they could have gotten to the wrong conclusion.

I guess I can understand because I'm sure its a coping mechanism because if self doubt creeps in, it makes it very difficult to do what they do and to convince other people that they aren't wrong the next time? But without self introspection on all of this, it makes it very difficult to fix the justice system and give everyone a fair shake within that system.

[burd]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

That's not funny at all...that is really the root of this problem, so many of the people in law enforcement work so hard on this stuff to get convictions, that they forget that we all make mistakes and they make them too and they refuse to accept that they could have gotten to the wrong conclusion.

I guess I can understand because I'm sure its a coping mechanism because if self doubt creeps in, it makes it very difficult to do what they do and to convince other people that they aren't wrong the next time? But without self introspection on all of this, it makes it very difficult to fix the justice system and give everyone a fair shake within that system.

Confirmation bias to deal with cognitive dissonance. We are all users.

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Do you know where I could score some?!

[jerphisch]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

More on the hood latch, here is Dassey's "confession" that led to the search where they found Avery's DNA on the hood latch:

FASSBENDER: Go back, I wanna back ya just a bit, you’re down at the car, and you’re hiding the car, right? (Brendan nods “yes”) Do you recall him taking the plates off?

BRENDAN: Yeah.

FASSBENDER: OK, what else did he do, he did somethin’ else, you need to tell us what he did, after that car is parked there. It’s extremely important. (pause) Before you guys leave that car.

BRENDAN: That he left the gun in the car.

FASSBENDER: That’s not what I’m thinkin’ about. He did something to that car. He took the plates and he, I believe he did something else in that car. (pause)

BRENDAN: I don’t know.

FASSBENDER: OK. Did he, did he, did he go and look at the engine, did he raise the hood at all or anything like that? To do something to that car?

BRENDAN: Yeah.

FASSBENDER: What was that? (pause)

WIEGERT: What did he do, Brendan?

WIEGERT: It’s OK, what did he do?

FASSBENDER: What did he do under the hood, if that’s what he did? (pause)

BRENDAN: I don’t know what he did, but I know he went under.

It's almost like they knew there might be something there...

[ealltech]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Unless you sat in the courtroom and listened to the prosecution (and the defense) present their case and cross-examine the witnesses, you really can't say for sure whether he was or wasn't proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

[St. Clown]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Profound.

[SJHovey]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Profound.

Give the guy a break. He's dealing with some significant "mom" issues.

[St. Clown]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Give the guy a break. He's dealing with some significant "mom" issues.

It's likely those mommy issues are just the start of a long list.

[Kepler]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

It's likely those mommy issues are just the start of a long list.

Hamlet, the short version.