Graduation Rate information

[alfablue]

Anyone know where one can find up to date graduation rates? I tried with google, and didn't find much info, and the NCAA's most recent data is from 2002-03.

The reason I bring this up is that on my first alma mater's message board, there's a thread that bashes Boise State's overall graduation rate of 26% (and also points out that they spend 6x for the atheletes vs. students), and some think it's ok that Idaho graduates now 57%.

Wheras 26% is pretty scandelous, I'm pretty bummed that 57% is considered good (top of the WAC- wooo-hooo). Compare that with the B10 with the NCAA's 02/03 data, and they would be way behind- average rate in the B10 is over 70%.

And I'm talking overall student body, NOT atheletes. Talking about the entire POINT of being a University.

Some of the other Mountain states are not much better- Montana and Montana State are below 50%, U of Utah barely above 50%, Wyoming- mid 50%... Farther west, Washington and the Cal school system all are at above 75% (the cal schools are above 80%).

What's up with the mountain west??? No wonder I left.

[Kepler]

Re: Graduation Rate information

A lot of schools are stepping stones people use to get in easily / pay a discount rate for their first 2 years / before swapping up to get the prettier degree, and I'm willing to bet Boise is one of them. People who transfer should at least be subtracted back out of the denominator, and arguably if they go on to graduate somewhere else the school has "done its job."

Whatever else her merits are, Sarah Palin is actually a pretty ordinary use case for the just-getting-by level of higher education that, realistically, many/most students aspire to. There are a lot of C students without trust funds, and they've gotta go somewhere.

Also, the entire point of a university isn't necessarily to produce a degree. Lots of people get what they want out of their education and leave without the diploma, for various reasons (financial, family business, pregnancy, etc).

Anyway, I tend to distrust those numbers.

[alfablue]

Re: Graduation Rate information

A lot of schools are stepping stones people use to get in easily / pay a discount rate for their first 2 years / before swapping up to get the prettier degree, and I'm willing to bet Boise is one of them. People who transfer should at least be subtracted back out of the denominator, and arguably if they go on to graduate somewhere else the school has "done its job."

Then my joke about Boise Community College is closer to the truth than not...

Also, the entire point of a university isn't necessarily to produce a degree. Lots of people get what they want out of their education and leave without the diploma, for various reasons (financial, family business, pregnancy, etc).

Anyway, I tend to distrust those numbers.

Yea, but I would think that there should be some economic benefit to the state that funds the schools- universities are expensive to run, and if the state does not generate revenue from those former students, then they've got some serious problems, don't they?

And the numbers that Idaho and BSU are quoting are their own numbers, not the NCAA. I know it's a problem in Idaho, since there's a big advertising campaign to keep going to school... Interesting.

[LynahFan]

Re: Graduation Rate information

Anyone know where one can find up to date graduation rates? I tried with google, and didn't find much info, and the NCAA's most recent data is from 2002-03.

This has to be one of those easy-to-imagine, impossible-to-calculate statistics. The number of graduates is easy to define, but the denominator is a lot trickier (as Kepler noted). Do you count part-time students? Students who took classes full time for a few semesters but never intended to graduate? Transfers out? Transfers in? Students who dropped out for a few years and then came back to complete their degrees? And even on the numerator side of things: if you're not counting, say, part-time students in the denominator, then you can't suddenly take credit for their graduations if they complete their degrees part-time, so even the numerator is not cut-and-dried. There's no way that you could find apples-to-apples comparisons across the board.

The only saving grace is that any school that actually publishes its graduation rate is probably using whatever accounting tricks it can to increase the number, so they're probably all using a lot of the same tricks.

[alfablue]

Re: Graduation Rate information

The only saving grace is that any school that actually publishes its graduation rate is probably using whatever accounting tricks it can to increase the number, so they're probably all using a lot of the same tricks.

Well, if you look at the NCAA rates that they have up to date, and compare it with the up to date data that the two schools are claiming- they are within a percentage point or two. But, I also would expect that the school would do their best to twist the numbers to look better. Again, BSU's 26% is self reported! I hope they would be smart enough to include in-state transfers, since I know it's pretty common to start at BSU and then move up to Idaho, since it's cheaper to live at home before finishing.

Still- that's a very low number. And Idaho's 56% isn't very good, either.

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Graduation Rate information

{Homer Simpson commentary on statistics here}

[DrewskiT]

Re: Graduation Rate information

This was mentioned on Monday on the Milwaukee Business Journal:

Best College Values

In it, they talk about more than just graduation rates, being just one factor of overall value. Also, you can customize the report you want to see. I don't believe they go beyond their top 100 though, at least not in that particular report.

[alfablue]

Re: Graduation Rate information

This was mentioned on Monday on the Milwaukee Business Journal:

Best College Values

In it, they talk about more than just graduation rates, being just one factor of overall value. Also, you can customize the report you want to see. I don't believe they go beyond their top 100 though, at least not in that particular report.

Interesting report, but neither school shows up in it.

I know graduation rate is just a part of what a school brings to the table, but it's a pretty strong measure of what the school brings to employment, when many carrers require a college degree.

[BoomGoestheDynamite]

Re: Graduation Rate information

Are those 4 year graduation rates? Part of the Big 10's success is probably linked to the fact that they're well funded flagship universities in large states and one of the best private schools in the country. They tend to get wealthier or more dedicated student bodies that have fewer distractions on their way to a degree. Boise State, Utah State, LA Tech, San Jose State, Fresno State, etc. do not receive the same level of support or the same type of student. I know a fair number of kids from HS who went to one of the various Cal States and for a large number of reasons at least half didn't graduate on time with a few getting involved in ventures that seemed like a good idea at the time (selling real estate in CA in 2006), which probably looked better than their immediate career prospects with a communications degree from Fresno State.

[alfablue]

Re: Graduation Rate information

Are those 4 year graduation rates? Part of the Big 10's success is probably linked to the fact that they're well funded flagship universities in large states and one of the best private schools in the country. They tend to get wealthier or more dedicated student bodies that have fewer distractions on their way to a degree. Boise State, Utah State, LA Tech, San Jose State, Fresno State, etc. do not receive the same level of support or the same type of student. I know a fair number of kids from HS who went to one of the various Cal States and for a large number of reasons at least half didn't graduate on time with a few getting involved in ventures that seemed like a good idea at the time (selling real estate in CA in 2006).

No, overall. BSU and Idaho are also state funded schools- Idaho being the formal state school- ag, law, engineering etc. One problem for the two schools is that education isn't a high priority in the state....

I really am starting to think that lots of the B10 success is that they very much concentrate on the acedemic side of things- see all of the info posted on the B10 expansion thread on the hockey side of things. That was very, very interesting to me, and, even as an alum, I had no idea.

While the B10 schools seem happy to let the face be altheltics to many people, behind the scenes, they are a very small part of the pie. I checked a recent set of data at Michigan, and the entire Athletic budget is less than 2% of the whole school- just under $100M vs $5.5B. I would not be surprised that any B10 school spends <5% on athletics.

But a lot out west are trying to make the case that expanded athletic spending will help the school- and to a point- I agree. But I also think it's short term gains- the school will be much stronger if the SCHOOL is strong- both for teaching and research. Make more graduates that contribute to your state's economy, and you make more tax dollars to go along with the circular research funding and private donations.

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Graduation Rate information

This was mentioned on Monday on the Milwaukee Business Journal:

Best College Values

In it, they talk about more than just graduation rates, being just one factor of overall value. Also, you can customize the report you want to see. I don't believe they go beyond their top 100 though, at least not in that particular report.

William and Mary was robbed. Lowest avg debt upon graduation AND it's not a corporate mega-school?

[/digression]

[Kepler]

Re: Graduation Rate information

William and Mary was robbed. Lowest avg debt upon graduation AND it's not a corporate mega-school?

[/digression]

Agreed completely. When my one of my daughters says "but I don't want to go to Cornell," I say "then get into W&M."

There's a donut problem for prairie and big sky schools -- the big draw to out of state schools serving high employment / high income markets (Chicago, DFW, Atlanta, Miami, California, RTP, the Accela Corridor). If you're a wonderful HS student in Idaho you're probably dreaming about... getting the hell out of Idaho.

Even if Boise State was the UNC-Chapel Hill of the Rockies, the dismal job market would kill their 4-year matriculation rate.

[alfablue]

Re: Graduation Rate information

Agreed completely. When my one of my daughters says "but I don't want to go to Cornell," I say "then get into W&M."

There's a donut problem for prairie and big sky schools -- the big draw to out of state schools serving high employment / high income markets (Chicago, DFW, Atlanta, Miami, California, RTP, the Accela Corridor). If you're a wonderful HS student in Idaho you're probably dreaming about... getting the hell out of Idaho.

Even if Boise State was the UNC-Chapel Hill of the Rockies, the dismal job market would kill their 4-year matriculation rate.

I'll poke a HUGE hole in that argument... UM and Metro Detroit....

The reason I left Idaho was that there's nothing there, and no real support to bring anything there. That's why there's generally a mass exodus for the smarter kids. I have no friends from HS who still live in my home town- at least that I'm aware of. There's no real support in Idaho for any decent industry outside of ranching and farming. Even the INL struggles- but the state doesn't support it- we all do.

It's funny how people complain about lack of jobs, but there's no skilled people to start tech businesses, and really no decent business support that I can tell from the state.

Anyway, it's frustrating to see- the stats were probably the same when I went to school there- I knew a lot of people who never finished.

[Kepler]

Re: Graduation Rate information

I'll poke a HUGE hole in that argument... UM and Metro Detroit....

I thought there was a direct line from the University of Michigan to Michigan Avenue.

And anyway, we're talking about good schools here...

[kdilks]

Re: Graduation Rate information

I thought there was a direct line from the University of Michigan to Michigan Avenue.

...State Street?

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sour...,0.220757&z=12