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  • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

    Originally posted by burd View Post
    You are correct, Bob. But many, including the last Republican candidate for VPOTUS, thought Iraq was "A task from God." Unfair to use her as a measure of opinion, I admit, but she was on the ticket to secure the support of that social conservative block that has been so influential with the GOP in recent years.
    That's two election cycles ago, not the last one. Unless Romney had a second VP candidate of which noboy but you and he had knowledge.
    "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

    "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

    "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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    • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

      Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
      That's two election cycles ago, not the last one. Unless Romney had a second VP candidate of which noboy but you and he had knowledge.
      It may as well be one since Romney had absolutely no shot. Especially the way he ran his campaign. I think some of his guys are working with Walker right now.
      **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

      Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
      Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
        That's two election cycles ago, not the last one. Unless Romney had a second VP candidate of which noboy but you and he had knowledge.

        Oops. Mitt will be pizzed.

        Comment


        • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

          Originally posted by burd View Post
          You are correct, Bob. But many, including the last Republican candidate for VPOTUS, thought Iraq was "A task from God." Unfair to use her as a measure of opinion, I admit, but she was on the ticket to secure the support of that social conservative block that has been so influential with the GOP in recent years.
          I followed the Iraq stuff fairly closely and I don't recall the Task From God angle you seem to recall. I'm not saying that someone might not have said that at some point, but it certainly wasn't one of the main discussion points regarding going into Iraq or not and for people after the fact to try to blame it on Christians is massive revisionism. In all the years liberals have complained about Iraq, and with a good bit of justification in my book (though of course many liberals supported/voted in favor of going in), I don't ever recall hearing this angle on it.
          Originally posted by Priceless
          Good to see you're so reasonable.
          Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
          Very well, said.
          Originally posted by Rover
          A fair assessment Bob.

          Comment


          • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

            Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
            Invading Iraq was about, amongst other things, a tragically flawed idea that you can push democracy onto a country with no interest or history of such. The support for the war does not have clear dividing lines between religious and non-religious folks. And I say that as someone who was never in favor of it and have said so when we went in and since then. That's a bad example to try to forward the argument I think you're trying to make.
            Nope, wrong argument. The Iraq war has about the same link to Christianity as anything does that your assigning to atheism. Like Kepler keeps pointing out, it's a good/bad thing, not religious/atheist thing.

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            • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

              Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
              I followed the Iraq stuff fairly closely and I don't recall the Task From God angle you seem to recall. I'm not saying that someone might not have said that at some point, but it certainly wasn't one of the main discussion points regarding going into Iraq or not and for people after the fact to try to blame it on Christians is massive revisionism. In all the years liberals have complained about Iraq, and with a good bit of justification in my book (though of course many liberals supported/voted in favor of going in), I don't ever recall hearing this angle on it.
              Palin definitely said it, though not until around '08, I believe. But like I said earlier, it is unfair to use her as a measure of opinion, either of conservatives or Christians. Idiots, maybe.

              Comment


              • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

                Originally posted by burd View Post
                Oops. Mitt will be pizzed.
                Why? He knows he's irrelevant. And he's got ****loads of piles of moola in the Cayman's. He don't care about this little stuff.
                **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

                Comment


                • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

                  Originally posted by jerphisch View Post
                  Nope, wrong argument. The Iraq war has about the same link to Christianity as anything does that your assigning to atheism. Like Kepler keeps pointing out, it's a good/bad thing, not religious/atheist thing.
                  That's just silly. One of Mao or Stalin or Pol Pot's main things was to stamp out God, a very clear connection. To say that connection is as strong as any connection of Christians to going into Iraq is laughable.

                  Kepler had made the comment about nutjobs and that it's surprising they haven't killed anyone yet, making the assertion (one he's made many times) that such folks are dangerous and certainly more dangerous than his harmless fellow liberals.
                  Originally posted by Priceless
                  Good to see you're so reasonable.
                  Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                  Very well, said.
                  Originally posted by Rover
                  A fair assessment Bob.

                  Comment


                  • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

                    Originally posted by burd View Post
                    Palin definitely said it, though not until around '08, I believe. But like I said earlier, it is unfair to use her as a measure of opinion, either of conservatives or Christians. Idiots, maybe.
                    Fair enough. I'm impressed at your encyclopedic-like knowledge of what Palin said so long ago. Can't say I'm similarly able.
                    Originally posted by Priceless
                    Good to see you're so reasonable.
                    Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                    Very well, said.
                    Originally posted by Rover
                    A fair assessment Bob.

                    Comment


                    • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

                      Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                      Fair enough. I'm impressed at your encyclopedic-like knowledge of what Palin said so long ago. Can't say I'm similarly able.
                      I hear you--remembering is not so easy anymore. But to hear that from a major party's VP candidate was so appalling, it was hard to forget.

                      Comment


                      • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

                        Originally posted by burd View Post
                        I hear you--remembering is not so easy anymore. But to hear that from a major party's VP candidate was so appalling, it was hard to forget.
                        She claimed to echo Lincoln. That is, not that we were fighting a holy war, or that she presumed to know who God may favor, but that she hoped we were doing what God would favor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnGSk6N0Ugg
                        That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

                        Comment


                        • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

                          Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                          That's just silly. One of Mao or Stalin or Pol Pot's main things was to stamp out God, a very clear connection. To say that connection is as strong as any connection of Christians to going into Iraq is laughable.
                          This is such a frivolous conversation. In a venn diagram of beliefs/values, Mao/Stalin/Pol Pot would have as much crossover with an average nonbeliever as Hitler would an average believer. Any conclusion beyond stating that they were all truly monsters is quite tenuous.
                          In the immortal words of Jean Paul Sartre, 'Au revoir, gopher'.

                          Originally posted by burd
                          I look at some people and I just know they do it doggy style. No way they're getting close to my kids.

                          Comment


                          • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

                            Originally posted by WisconsinWildcard View Post
                            This is such a frivolous conversation. In a venn diagram of beliefs/values, Mao/Stalin/Pol Pot would have as much crossover with an average nonbeliever as Hitler would an average believer. Any conclusion beyond stating that they were all truly monsters is quite tenuous.
                            Hitler's connection to Christianity was tenuous at best and in reality non-existent other than cynical use for propaganda purposes at certain times and he killed many believers. If you could ask Dietrich Bonhoeffer and many others who ended up with the same fate as him, he'd beg to differ with you.

                            Obviously your average nonbeliever in no way does what Stalin or Pol Pot or Mao did, but that doesn't change that those folks explicitly rejected God and any related acknowledgement or practice and slaughtered those who did. No way they fall anywhere but in the nonbeliever is we're doing Kepler's tally. Putting Hitler in any sort of Christian category is far far more questionable.
                            Originally posted by Priceless
                            Good to see you're so reasonable.
                            Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                            Very well, said.
                            Originally posted by Rover
                            A fair assessment Bob.

                            Comment


                            • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

                              Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                              Hitler's connection to Christianity was tenuous at best and in reality non-existent other than cynical use for propaganda purposes at certain times and he killed many believers. If you could ask Dietrich Bonhoeffer and many others who ended up with the same fate as him, he'd beg to differ with you.

                              Obviously your average nonbeliever in no way does what Stalin or Pol Pot or Mao did, but that doesn't change that those folks explicitly rejected God and any related acknowledgement or practice and slaughtered those who did. No way they fall anywhere but in the nonbeliever is we're doing Kepler's tally. Putting Hitler in any sort of Christian category is far far more questionable.
                              I can say right away, defining atheism as a whole as "explicitly rejecting God" really puts us in an early divide. I am trying to say that the religiosity of these people is largely irrelevant to the horrible acts they did. We understand a lot about neurobiology at this point, and what creates a psychopath/sociopath/whathaveyou, and religion seems to have no change positive or negative on this.

                              Here is a question. By most accounts, I am a pretty good person (not perfect) as are all the non-believers I know. Do you think most non-believers are good people because of their non-belief or in spite of their non-belief?
                              In the immortal words of Jean Paul Sartre, 'Au revoir, gopher'.

                              Originally posted by burd
                              I look at some people and I just know they do it doggy style. No way they're getting close to my kids.

                              Comment


                              • Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

                                Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                                Hitler's connection to Christianity was tenuous at best and in reality non-existent other than cynical use for propaganda purposes at certain times and he killed many believers. If you could ask Dietrich Bonhoeffer and many others who ended up with the same fate as him, he'd beg to differ with you.

                                Obviously your average nonbeliever in no way does what Stalin or Pol Pot or Mao did, but that doesn't change that those folks explicitly rejected God and any related acknowledgement or practice and slaughtered those who did. No way they fall anywhere but in the nonbeliever is we're doing Kepler's tally. Putting Hitler in any sort of Christian category is far far more questionable.
                                Depends. If we're counting death strictly by believers and non-believers then you guys get him, sorry. If we're counting deaths with the motivation to kill believers/non-believers, then you get a pass on Hitler's non-Jews but we get a pass on Mao and Pol Pot's non-religious deaths.

                                But the whole thing is massively dumb. These deaths were due to the madness of the leadership -- if Mao had been a 16th century Frenchman he'd have been killing right and left in the name of the Lord. He happened to get hatched 50 years after Marx with a bone to pick against the colonialists.

                                I forget exactly how we went down this path, but my point was that religiosity doesn't cause morality. It can ground it, but a religious person is just as likely to be a complete SOB because our powers of rationalization are infinite. By the same measure, lack of religiosity also doesn't cause morality. It can ground it (in an existential reality where we are the only moral actors in the universe it's up to us to take up the burden of ethical action), but an atheist can also justify his depredations despite that sense of responsibility, or even be blind to it entirely.
                                Last edited by Kepler; 09-15-2015, 07:13 PM.
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